Are you an atheist?
- Thread starter Jon
- Start date
I think that religion is learned behavior, not innate behavior. The innate behavior is investigation born of curiosity and the concomitant desire to have a working model of reality as a survival tool. The pre-scientific mind, however, had no feel for many natural phenomena but knew it was important to have answers.
Since early Man's model of the universe (short-range universe...) was almost certainly based on strict causality, every dead-end would vex him. To solve this problem, Man created gods, spirits, whatever else you've got - all for the sole purpose of providing causality where their very limited knowledge of science left them with too many gaps.
Since early Man's model of the universe (short-range universe...) was almost certainly based on strict causality, every dead-end would vex him. To solve this problem, Man created gods, spirits, whatever else you've got - all for the sole purpose of providing causality where their very limited knowledge of science left them with too many gaps.
Jon (your post #23) in this thread:
Recognizing religion as the foundation of early moral code is not consistent with other things I have read. Morality develops first as a coping mechanism between people to keep villages from destabilizing. If you don't steal a person's cattle, wife, kids, or dog (and they don't steal yours), you have the start of a moral foundation - the earliest aspect of the Golden Rule. So many people see that as coming from religion. But many cultures (including non-Christian ones) have that rule and thus it is unlikely to have originated from religion.
Recognizing religion as the foundation of early moral code is not consistent with other things I have read. Morality develops first as a coping mechanism between people to keep villages from destabilizing. If you don't steal a person's cattle, wife, kids, or dog (and they don't steal yours), you have the start of a moral foundation - the earliest aspect of the Golden Rule. So many people see that as coming from religion. But many cultures (including non-Christian ones) have that rule and thus it is unlikely to have originated from religion.
This idea isn't fully flushed out but it occurred to me to start thinking about it.
When we are born, we are dependent on our parents and other elders. As we age we gain knowledge and independence which breeds curiosity and reflection to gain more independence. The inherent need to be dependent is not shed, it is nurtured by being social creatures. Recognition of those who have more knowledge or skill than others creates a hierarchy.
Today, I started an audible course from the Great Courses: The Science of Mindfulness. One point made in the first lecture that seems to apply:
It is not healthy to be a low ranking male for chimpanzees.
God's actual existence is irrelevant to religion because God either exists or not and there is no empirical evidence to prove it one way or the other. Religion is the practice and belief system employed to honor a deity or group of deities, and translates well to social hierarchy even laying the foundation for it in some cases. It becomes a tool for setting standards and answers the question "Who do you think you are to tell me what to do?" with "I do not demand these things of you, God does and I am just His messenger"
I'm sure this needs more thought but I think it gets us started.
I believe in God because I choose to recognize things in my life as being only possible through Him. I scrutinize religion because I have seen in tangible ways how it has been abused to control populations and justify horrific behavior.
When we are born, we are dependent on our parents and other elders. As we age we gain knowledge and independence which breeds curiosity and reflection to gain more independence. The inherent need to be dependent is not shed, it is nurtured by being social creatures. Recognition of those who have more knowledge or skill than others creates a hierarchy.
Today, I started an audible course from the Great Courses: The Science of Mindfulness. One point made in the first lecture that seems to apply:
It is not healthy to be a low ranking male for chimpanzees.
God's actual existence is irrelevant to religion because God either exists or not and there is no empirical evidence to prove it one way or the other. Religion is the practice and belief system employed to honor a deity or group of deities, and translates well to social hierarchy even laying the foundation for it in some cases. It becomes a tool for setting standards and answers the question "Who do you think you are to tell me what to do?" with "I do not demand these things of you, God does and I am just His messenger"
I'm sure this needs more thought but I think it gets us started.
I believe in God because I choose to recognize things in my life as being only possible through Him. I scrutinize religion because I have seen in tangible ways how it has been abused to control populations and justify horrific behavior.
AI, that is an interesting attitude. As you point out, God's existence is irrelevant because we would get the same results here on Earth whether or not God existed as long as the mental image of a vengeful and stern uber-father figure was part of the culture.
My problem is simple: IF God is actually there, He is being terribly neglectful of His children.
On the other hand, IF God does not exist, then the concept inherent in "I do not demand these things of you, God does and I am just His messenger" leads to horrible abuses. See for example Jim Jones in Ghana, David Koresh in Waco, and innumerable Catholic priests with young altar servers. The danger is that in the absence of PROOF that you are a messenger, there is no more reason for me to believe you than if you were a drooling, screaming, seizure-afflicted person. Come to think of it, there have been a few of THOSE types of religious leader in history too. Anyway, the problem is that God doesn't issue meaningful credentials.
I respect that your interpretation of things in your life leads you to the belief you have. My interpretations have been different, but each of us needs to look at things through the subjective filters that are our minds.
My problem is simple: IF God is actually there, He is being terribly neglectful of His children.
On the other hand, IF God does not exist, then the concept inherent in "I do not demand these things of you, God does and I am just His messenger" leads to horrible abuses. See for example Jim Jones in Ghana, David Koresh in Waco, and innumerable Catholic priests with young altar servers. The danger is that in the absence of PROOF that you are a messenger, there is no more reason for me to believe you than if you were a drooling, screaming, seizure-afflicted person. Come to think of it, there have been a few of THOSE types of religious leader in history too. Anyway, the problem is that God doesn't issue meaningful credentials.
I respect that your interpretation of things in your life leads you to the belief you have. My interpretations have been different, but each of us needs to look at things through the subjective filters that are our minds.
@The_Doc_Man:
Let me pre-emptively apologize in case you don't receive this the way I hope you will.
I ask this as carefully as possible because it could easily be considered inflammatory and leading. I'm asking it anyway in the sincere hopes that I may learn from your response AND retain the respect we have shown each other so far.
Your comment has the same theme I see coming from atheists on a regular basis and it makes no sense to me:
1. If you refuse to believe in God, why are you passing judgement on God by stating He is neglectful?
2. If you could accept that God exists, how do you justify passing judgement on one that would be your superior?
I find an atheist arguing with a religious follower to be logical because they have opposing views.
I find an atheist arguing over whether God has shirked some assumed responsibility to be inconsistent; how can one hold a non-existent entity responsible for anything?
I am anticipating a few answers but would like your honest opinion on this. I have taken direct note of your prefix "IF", so please take this as an academic exercise.
I imagine this could go just as poorly as a protestant asking a catholic how their religion is anything other than the worst blend of the Pharisees and paganism? (All about rules + saint / god for everything under the sun) I actually challenged a friend on why they pray to saints instead of God, luckily we're still friends but we don't discuss religion any more.
I am not trying to convince you of anything nor am I asking to be convinced. I simply want to understand.
Let me pre-emptively apologize in case you don't receive this the way I hope you will.
I ask this as carefully as possible because it could easily be considered inflammatory and leading. I'm asking it anyway in the sincere hopes that I may learn from your response AND retain the respect we have shown each other so far.
Your comment has the same theme I see coming from atheists on a regular basis and it makes no sense to me:
1. If you refuse to believe in God, why are you passing judgement on God by stating He is neglectful?
2. If you could accept that God exists, how do you justify passing judgement on one that would be your superior?
I find an atheist arguing with a religious follower to be logical because they have opposing views.
I find an atheist arguing over whether God has shirked some assumed responsibility to be inconsistent; how can one hold a non-existent entity responsible for anything?
I am anticipating a few answers but would like your honest opinion on this. I have taken direct note of your prefix "IF", so please take this as an academic exercise.
I imagine this could go just as poorly as a protestant asking a catholic how their religion is anything other than the worst blend of the Pharisees and paganism? (All about rules + saint / god for everything under the sun) I actually challenged a friend on why they pray to saints instead of God, luckily we're still friends but we don't discuss religion any more.
I am not trying to convince you of anything nor am I asking to be convinced. I simply want to understand.
No apology necessary, and your question was reasonably worded. Think nothing of it. There was no insult.
As a hypothetical comment, I temporarily entertained the idea that God exists. As the lawyers say, pro argumentum. If the God of the Bible exists, and all of this "The beneficent God loves you" commentary is accurate, then I fail to see any beneficence and have to question the accuracy of all related comments. I see the suffering in the world and the strife caused by religion leading people to hatred through religious differences. I see poverty, disease, and starvation, including religiously devout people.
My comment is simple: If there is a God, He is being awfully neglectful of His children because he should step in to stop the fights and settle the arguments. Then we could better distribute our resources knowing with CERTAINTY there is an eventual reward or punishment based on our actions. Without that certainty, there is no demonstrable advantage in being slightly conservative (some folks would say "selfish" or even "greedy") in the way we handle resources.
If we are to aggrandize God by worshiping Him, I would think that we needed a better reason than we currently have. All of those TV televangelists who say that this earthquake or that tornado or this storm or that plague was sent by God to punish us are just so full of crap that it makes me want to barf. As if THEY knew any better than anyone else what God's plan really was. (More about that shortly.) But if that God DOESN'T exist, then all that hatred and strife come from people looking for and not finding reasons to behave better. The disasters come from nature, from thermodynamics applied on a global scale.
The old "God works in mysterious ways" is a religious smokescreen for "Damned if I know why x happened." Another old chestnut is "We are not meant to know the mind of God." Another way of saying "I doubt we will ever know why x happened."
Often, I will comment in a way that follows the style of reductio ad absurdam as a way to negate someone's argument. But sometimes when I am NOT actually trying to refute an argument I might cut things a bit shorter than otherwise. I acknowledge that your quote extracted from my earlier post was a bit terse. Happens sometimes - that's all the excuse I can offer.
As to why I can appear to pass judgment, it is simple. Still pro argumentum, God created us in His own image. Even if God is my superior, I have every right to complain. By analogy regarding superior/inferior beings: Can a dog not bark at a man? Can an angry or frightened dog not bite a man who gets too close?
If I have free will, I can choose to argue with the God that others say was my creator. That was His gift to all of us, right? If I have the questioning mind given to me by the hypothetical God, and if I have free will, and if I see what appears to be negligence on the part of that God, I should have the right to comment. The God who loves all of his children and watches over them is falling down on the job. Miserably. He can make food fall from the sky; He did that for Moses once. He can strike down a city; He did that twice, for Sodom and Gomorrah, or so the story goes. He can flood the world to wipe the slate nearly clean; He did that once, too, if you believe the stories.
You might not know this from the other forum where I sometimes see you, but I am a former Methodist. My faith left me at about age 35 during a really difficult time in my life. I read the Bible a LOT during that time to try to find solace, comfort, advice, reasons, whatever. But I found nothing. Over a period of about five years, I read the Bible looking and not finding. So I read it more closely. The more I read, the less sense it made. Like many philosophers and pundits, I agree: The best way to become an atheist is to read the Bible critically.
BTW- all of that "praying to the saints" viewpoint is wasted regardless of which way you go about God beliefs. It is specific to certain religions.
While reading my New Oxford English Bible with Apocrypha, I found the Book of Esdras. Not all religions reject the Apocrypha. The first three chapters of Esdras make it pretty clear that "intercessory prayers" (to the saints) don't work. So I always chuckle to myself when I hear someone praying to the saints.
As a hypothetical comment, I temporarily entertained the idea that God exists. As the lawyers say, pro argumentum. If the God of the Bible exists, and all of this "The beneficent God loves you" commentary is accurate, then I fail to see any beneficence and have to question the accuracy of all related comments. I see the suffering in the world and the strife caused by religion leading people to hatred through religious differences. I see poverty, disease, and starvation, including religiously devout people.
My comment is simple: If there is a God, He is being awfully neglectful of His children because he should step in to stop the fights and settle the arguments. Then we could better distribute our resources knowing with CERTAINTY there is an eventual reward or punishment based on our actions. Without that certainty, there is no demonstrable advantage in being slightly conservative (some folks would say "selfish" or even "greedy") in the way we handle resources.
If we are to aggrandize God by worshiping Him, I would think that we needed a better reason than we currently have. All of those TV televangelists who say that this earthquake or that tornado or this storm or that plague was sent by God to punish us are just so full of crap that it makes me want to barf. As if THEY knew any better than anyone else what God's plan really was. (More about that shortly.) But if that God DOESN'T exist, then all that hatred and strife come from people looking for and not finding reasons to behave better. The disasters come from nature, from thermodynamics applied on a global scale.
The old "God works in mysterious ways" is a religious smokescreen for "Damned if I know why x happened." Another old chestnut is "We are not meant to know the mind of God." Another way of saying "I doubt we will ever know why x happened."
Often, I will comment in a way that follows the style of reductio ad absurdam as a way to negate someone's argument. But sometimes when I am NOT actually trying to refute an argument I might cut things a bit shorter than otherwise. I acknowledge that your quote extracted from my earlier post was a bit terse. Happens sometimes - that's all the excuse I can offer.
As to why I can appear to pass judgment, it is simple. Still pro argumentum, God created us in His own image. Even if God is my superior, I have every right to complain. By analogy regarding superior/inferior beings: Can a dog not bark at a man? Can an angry or frightened dog not bite a man who gets too close?
If I have free will, I can choose to argue with the God that others say was my creator. That was His gift to all of us, right? If I have the questioning mind given to me by the hypothetical God, and if I have free will, and if I see what appears to be negligence on the part of that God, I should have the right to comment. The God who loves all of his children and watches over them is falling down on the job. Miserably. He can make food fall from the sky; He did that for Moses once. He can strike down a city; He did that twice, for Sodom and Gomorrah, or so the story goes. He can flood the world to wipe the slate nearly clean; He did that once, too, if you believe the stories.
You might not know this from the other forum where I sometimes see you, but I am a former Methodist. My faith left me at about age 35 during a really difficult time in my life. I read the Bible a LOT during that time to try to find solace, comfort, advice, reasons, whatever. But I found nothing. Over a period of about five years, I read the Bible looking and not finding. So I read it more closely. The more I read, the less sense it made. Like many philosophers and pundits, I agree: The best way to become an atheist is to read the Bible critically.
BTW- all of that "praying to the saints" viewpoint is wasted regardless of which way you go about God beliefs. It is specific to certain religions.
While reading my New Oxford English Bible with Apocrypha, I found the Book of Esdras. Not all religions reject the Apocrypha. The first three chapters of Esdras make it pretty clear that "intercessory prayers" (to the saints) don't work. So I always chuckle to myself when I hear someone praying to the saints.
@The_Doc_Man
Thank you. This is the first well thought out answer I have ever received for this question. I'm accustomed to insults and angry quips (understandably so because this pokes a person deep). Thank you.
I have so many things running through my head in response to this but I am choosing to wait and give them their due. There are so many things that hit me, I want to give you a response of equal quality. We agree on many points is all I will say for now.
Thank you. This is the first well thought out answer I have ever received for this question. I'm accustomed to insults and angry quips (understandably so because this pokes a person deep). Thank you.
I have so many things running through my head in response to this but I am choosing to wait and give them their due. There are so many things that hit me, I want to give you a response of equal quality. We agree on many points is all I will say for now.
You are welcome. I will check in from time to time but my time to answer is getting a bit constrained due to a combination of wife's recovery from surgery requiring a lot of my time, and my mother-in-law is reaching a critical stage in the progression of her cancer. Wifey is fine other than being frustrated due to her enforced mobility limitations, and being unable to take more of an active role in what may be her mom's last days. But we don't know how long any of us will stick around. Anyway, I'm going to not visit QUITE so often for a while. Not signing off by any means - but not expecting heavy participation.
Part 1 of 2:
I’m taking the time to finally respond today after making another leap of faith. I am resigning my position today in the midst of financial strife and nearing bankruptcy. I’m doing this as a matter of self-preservation with the calm my faith provides me.
I believe God does love me and wants me to prosper. I also believe God has given me free will. I also believe that God is intelligent enough to use my choices to fit into His plans. I have no proof to offer you that God does in fact step in to help, just my observation and choice to believe in God rather than an exceptional level of coincidence.
If God loves me / us, why do bad things happen? I have accepted the answer: because God gave us free will and I imagine for a very good reason. I was reading the book of Exodus for a probably the tenth time The_Doc_Man gave his response to me. I’ve studied this book in disciple class and found our common ground in disgust for organized religion because I had a feminist trying to tell me how wrong my Bible was for depicting women in such a light trying to lead the class. I also found out that the Israelites had the best of the lands for generations and were favored for the good fortune brought by their skills. Then a new Pharaoh comes to power, looks around at his people taking second place to the Israelites and starts treating them very badly. This could be written off as simple nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment in out current vernacular but is more commonly interpreted as God telling His people “you’ve gotten too comfortable and lost focus on what’s really important”.
Throughout the old testament, God delivers great wealth to His people and then allows it to be taken away again later when His people don’t hold up their end of the bargain. So, my first answer as to why God lets / (even helps) bad things happen: Our disobedience to Him. My second answer is: God is showing us some tough love from time to time by allowing us to suffer the consequences of our actions. I find this sentiment is often rebuffed with some form of a deadbeat dad response; I reject that response but respect the different views that produce the diabolically opposed positions. Either you accept that God is the universal sovereign, or you don’t; that typically determines which side of the argument you’re on. Many times, I find Christians struggling with their faith who are stuck in the middle teetering from one position to another while fighting through their emotion; or I’m projecting my own weakness onto others in an attempt to understand them.
The problem with organized religion:
The tenderness that Jesus Christ spoke to the flock, and to the lost among the house of Israel, was not granted to the Pharisees and Sadducees. His forerunner, John the Baptist, and Christ Himself, introduced them to the multitudes as ‘brood of vipers’ (Matthew 3:7, 12:34) and descendants of Abraham, only according to the flesh (Matthew 3:9).
Jesus pronounced that upon their hands all the righteous blood of the prophets would be placed. To them He ascribed son ship to Satan (John 8:44-45), and pronounced anathemas of the worst kind. Messiah proposed to the multitudes that the Pharisees’ self-deception, false teaching, and murderous hatred gave evidence to their status as objects of wrath and non-citizens of the heavenly kingdom. (https://bcri.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/jesus-warning-against-the-pharisees-matthew-231-12/)
I borrowed that because it works for my point. It’s basically politics in a different uniform. People need to be organized and someone has to do it. Someone steps up, builds a team and starts to do things to help the people. The people love this because its one less thing on their to do list and one more thing on their list of reasons to believe in a false sense of security. This develops into bigger organizations that need funding and control over resources. That control over resources tends to help people forget why they are doing what they are doing and begin believing they are better and more deserving because of what they do. This snowballs in full fledged religions and government all the same. To summarize: the problem with organized religion is the organization into large enough entities that the people at the top forget their role is to serve the people at the bottom.
In spite of my observations of the corruption and politics that drove me away from my childhood church; I am a Christian. In spite of the internal conflict I see within my current church; I am a Christian. In spite of the fact that I do not like organized religion, I accepted the call to serve as a deacon in my church, so I could serve. I am the youngest, least trained and have the least responsibility, but I serve. I choose this church because despite its faults, we also serve the community in many ways. I find that my two years of showing up half the Sundays (or less) and serving community meals, supporting fund raisers for the local boys / girl scouts etc. is rewarding to me. The feeling I get when I do something for someone else knowing they can never repay me is gratifying and makes me feel like I’ve honored the gifts that God has given me.
@The_Doc_Man: I empathize with your journey that broke your faith. (Forgive me if I’ve over stated my interpretation of your experience) . Maybe I refuse to agree with you because I am in this very same struggle in life, looking to God for answers and guidance. I’ve lived in pain for my 40 years with brief instances of relief from time to time. I’ve been knocked down only to start back up again. What I see in hindsight is all the things that happened at the right time to allow me to grow and move on with my life.
Follow this timeline of the last year or so:
September 22nd 2017, I discovered my employer was stealing from us for months by way of taking deductions from our pay for medical insurances but not paying the insurance company. This was the last straw as I was already serving as a state’s witness to the environmental laws they were breaking. I quit with a surgery scheduled for October 9th. I barely had a month and a half of expenses saved but quite anyway. I had to sign up for COBRA to extend my health coverage and luckily wasn’t forced to pay the past-due premiums on the company’s plan. The approval process was grueling and I was in so much pain that I brought my gun with me to the hospital because I wasn’t going to be in pain that afternoon one way or another. 5 minutes before the hospital was going to cancel my surgery, the insurance company provided the authorization paperwork.
I had my surgery grinding out the back part of my vertebrae in my neck (C5/6) as well as very delicate carving of the foramen (side channels) to relieve the pressure on the nerves and in once case for my left arm, separate the nerve from the bone spur cutting into it. This approach had to be taken because the first surgery fusing these vertebrae didn’t heal right and the fix is a once in a lifetime option saved for later. I woke up from the surgery without help from medication because my previous stint on pain management ended in a three-month detox. I remember calling to Jesus to save me, heal me and forgive me when I woke up in pain. I was able to endure with very little help after I woke up and took a total of 10 Percocet in the hospital (3 days) for recovery to manage the pain.
It turned out that I was out of work for two months. My unemployment claim was denied repeatedly until I finally made it to a hearing with the state where I clearly asked the “judge” (for a lack of a better term) “How long can I steal from my employer before they are allowed to fire me? Take that answer and apply it to how long I should have allowed my employer to steal from me, especially when the response from The VP and HR were “We did it for you own good”. I won the case and received back pay just in time to start rebuilding my cash reserves and working for a few months. This money saved my trucking company which has been on the brink of failure four times this year and is dancing that line again today. The job that I had went sour less than three weeks before my contract was to mature and I would be hired in directly. I had another heart attack the morning after I told my boss I needed a break. The client decided two weeks out after a heart attack was too much, so I spent another two months unemployed.
I found my current position that was wonderful for months but in the last 45 days or so has taken an extreme turnabout which is why I am tendering my immediate resignation this morning . I don’t have six months of expenses saved up any longer, in fact much of what I had is keeping the company alive. I do however have a full pantry and deep freezer because I managed to score $700 in side work this last week out of nowhere and it only took me about 8 hours to do the work. My wife has a Christmas budget in cash, my heat and water are prepaid for the next year. My mortgage is less than I used to pay in rent. I have ideas that could turn into self-employment which has been on my mind for over two years to just do it. I have a network of friends, most of whom are in worse shape than me, all taking care of each other. I have a therapist telling me that he hears plans and concrete inspiration rather than desperation and is helping me organize a plan of action.
All of these circumstances, and there’s plenty more where those came from, could destroy me and cause me to question my God. I could look at the strife and difficulty I’ve faced in my life and deny my Lord but I refuse to do so. In fact, I look to God and ask, what do You want me to do? What areas of my life need to be corrected now? I look for the fault in myself rather the fault in my God. It gives me hope. It keeps me typing “;” instead of “.” In my book of life.
I’m taking the time to finally respond today after making another leap of faith. I am resigning my position today in the midst of financial strife and nearing bankruptcy. I’m doing this as a matter of self-preservation with the calm my faith provides me.
I believe God does love me and wants me to prosper. I also believe God has given me free will. I also believe that God is intelligent enough to use my choices to fit into His plans. I have no proof to offer you that God does in fact step in to help, just my observation and choice to believe in God rather than an exceptional level of coincidence.
If God loves me / us, why do bad things happen? I have accepted the answer: because God gave us free will and I imagine for a very good reason. I was reading the book of Exodus for a probably the tenth time The_Doc_Man gave his response to me. I’ve studied this book in disciple class and found our common ground in disgust for organized religion because I had a feminist trying to tell me how wrong my Bible was for depicting women in such a light trying to lead the class. I also found out that the Israelites had the best of the lands for generations and were favored for the good fortune brought by their skills. Then a new Pharaoh comes to power, looks around at his people taking second place to the Israelites and starts treating them very badly. This could be written off as simple nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment in out current vernacular but is more commonly interpreted as God telling His people “you’ve gotten too comfortable and lost focus on what’s really important”.
Throughout the old testament, God delivers great wealth to His people and then allows it to be taken away again later when His people don’t hold up their end of the bargain. So, my first answer as to why God lets / (even helps) bad things happen: Our disobedience to Him. My second answer is: God is showing us some tough love from time to time by allowing us to suffer the consequences of our actions. I find this sentiment is often rebuffed with some form of a deadbeat dad response; I reject that response but respect the different views that produce the diabolically opposed positions. Either you accept that God is the universal sovereign, or you don’t; that typically determines which side of the argument you’re on. Many times, I find Christians struggling with their faith who are stuck in the middle teetering from one position to another while fighting through their emotion; or I’m projecting my own weakness onto others in an attempt to understand them.
The problem with organized religion:
The tenderness that Jesus Christ spoke to the flock, and to the lost among the house of Israel, was not granted to the Pharisees and Sadducees. His forerunner, John the Baptist, and Christ Himself, introduced them to the multitudes as ‘brood of vipers’ (Matthew 3:7, 12:34) and descendants of Abraham, only according to the flesh (Matthew 3:9).
Jesus pronounced that upon their hands all the righteous blood of the prophets would be placed. To them He ascribed son ship to Satan (John 8:44-45), and pronounced anathemas of the worst kind. Messiah proposed to the multitudes that the Pharisees’ self-deception, false teaching, and murderous hatred gave evidence to their status as objects of wrath and non-citizens of the heavenly kingdom. (https://bcri.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/jesus-warning-against-the-pharisees-matthew-231-12/)
I borrowed that because it works for my point. It’s basically politics in a different uniform. People need to be organized and someone has to do it. Someone steps up, builds a team and starts to do things to help the people. The people love this because its one less thing on their to do list and one more thing on their list of reasons to believe in a false sense of security. This develops into bigger organizations that need funding and control over resources. That control over resources tends to help people forget why they are doing what they are doing and begin believing they are better and more deserving because of what they do. This snowballs in full fledged religions and government all the same. To summarize: the problem with organized religion is the organization into large enough entities that the people at the top forget their role is to serve the people at the bottom.
In spite of my observations of the corruption and politics that drove me away from my childhood church; I am a Christian. In spite of the internal conflict I see within my current church; I am a Christian. In spite of the fact that I do not like organized religion, I accepted the call to serve as a deacon in my church, so I could serve. I am the youngest, least trained and have the least responsibility, but I serve. I choose this church because despite its faults, we also serve the community in many ways. I find that my two years of showing up half the Sundays (or less) and serving community meals, supporting fund raisers for the local boys / girl scouts etc. is rewarding to me. The feeling I get when I do something for someone else knowing they can never repay me is gratifying and makes me feel like I’ve honored the gifts that God has given me.
@The_Doc_Man: I empathize with your journey that broke your faith. (Forgive me if I’ve over stated my interpretation of your experience) . Maybe I refuse to agree with you because I am in this very same struggle in life, looking to God for answers and guidance. I’ve lived in pain for my 40 years with brief instances of relief from time to time. I’ve been knocked down only to start back up again. What I see in hindsight is all the things that happened at the right time to allow me to grow and move on with my life.
Follow this timeline of the last year or so:
September 22nd 2017, I discovered my employer was stealing from us for months by way of taking deductions from our pay for medical insurances but not paying the insurance company. This was the last straw as I was already serving as a state’s witness to the environmental laws they were breaking. I quit with a surgery scheduled for October 9th. I barely had a month and a half of expenses saved but quite anyway. I had to sign up for COBRA to extend my health coverage and luckily wasn’t forced to pay the past-due premiums on the company’s plan. The approval process was grueling and I was in so much pain that I brought my gun with me to the hospital because I wasn’t going to be in pain that afternoon one way or another. 5 minutes before the hospital was going to cancel my surgery, the insurance company provided the authorization paperwork.
I had my surgery grinding out the back part of my vertebrae in my neck (C5/6) as well as very delicate carving of the foramen (side channels) to relieve the pressure on the nerves and in once case for my left arm, separate the nerve from the bone spur cutting into it. This approach had to be taken because the first surgery fusing these vertebrae didn’t heal right and the fix is a once in a lifetime option saved for later. I woke up from the surgery without help from medication because my previous stint on pain management ended in a three-month detox. I remember calling to Jesus to save me, heal me and forgive me when I woke up in pain. I was able to endure with very little help after I woke up and took a total of 10 Percocet in the hospital (3 days) for recovery to manage the pain.
It turned out that I was out of work for two months. My unemployment claim was denied repeatedly until I finally made it to a hearing with the state where I clearly asked the “judge” (for a lack of a better term) “How long can I steal from my employer before they are allowed to fire me? Take that answer and apply it to how long I should have allowed my employer to steal from me, especially when the response from The VP and HR were “We did it for you own good”. I won the case and received back pay just in time to start rebuilding my cash reserves and working for a few months. This money saved my trucking company which has been on the brink of failure four times this year and is dancing that line again today. The job that I had went sour less than three weeks before my contract was to mature and I would be hired in directly. I had another heart attack the morning after I told my boss I needed a break. The client decided two weeks out after a heart attack was too much, so I spent another two months unemployed.
I found my current position that was wonderful for months but in the last 45 days or so has taken an extreme turnabout which is why I am tendering my immediate resignation this morning . I don’t have six months of expenses saved up any longer, in fact much of what I had is keeping the company alive. I do however have a full pantry and deep freezer because I managed to score $700 in side work this last week out of nowhere and it only took me about 8 hours to do the work. My wife has a Christmas budget in cash, my heat and water are prepaid for the next year. My mortgage is less than I used to pay in rent. I have ideas that could turn into self-employment which has been on my mind for over two years to just do it. I have a network of friends, most of whom are in worse shape than me, all taking care of each other. I have a therapist telling me that he hears plans and concrete inspiration rather than desperation and is helping me organize a plan of action.
All of these circumstances, and there’s plenty more where those came from, could destroy me and cause me to question my God. I could look at the strife and difficulty I’ve faced in my life and deny my Lord but I refuse to do so. In fact, I look to God and ask, what do You want me to do? What areas of my life need to be corrected now? I look for the fault in myself rather the fault in my God. It gives me hope. It keeps me typing “;” instead of “.” In my book of life.
Part 2 of 2:
It is entirely possible that I am mis-guided for turning to my religion while finding so much fault in how it is practiced. I am certain that inconsistencies can be found in the Bible, especially after being translated so many times. I also understand as a bit of a dummy Christian who hasn’t properly studied the Bible I can rest on a few points:
1. God is the only rightful judge. (Bible)
2. Jesus summed it up for us during the sermon on the mount: If you can’t get anything else right, love one another.
3. Per my friend Larry: I may not agree with Christianity, but I sure do appreciate the lessons your Christ tried to teach you. (paraphrased)
I have survived being repeatedly raped by my uncle and being groomed for the sex trade starting before I was in Kindergarten. I have survived migraines that lasted for days at a time from the time I was three until my first neck surgery in 2013. I have scoliosis and unfused vertebrae in my lower back that cause me pain daily. I was beaten almost daily by my brothers (being older brothers) and mother (discipline). I fought on the playground almost daily beating up bullies. I lost the guidance of education when my teacher drove off the side of a mountain in fifth grade. I have been a drug addict, a sex addict, a negative person with a very sharp tongue (and still working on that). I have worked since I was six years old and had to reinvent myself at least four times in my 40 years on this earth. I know what it’s like to eat nothing but oatmeal for months only to follow that up with generic boxed mac & cheese because that’s all we had to eat and it was provides by the uncle taking liberties with me. I have survived multiple suicide attempts, two heart attacks, two surgeries on my neck, poverty, failure, distress, physical and emotional pain that has been relentless throughout my life. I spent three years rescuing my daughter from her abuser only to watch her run back to him within hours until I took the advice of my therapist and cut ties until she leaves him; this means I have yet to meet my first grandson who is now 5 months old. I have given my best at jobs for people who don’t deserve my used toilet paper because I refuse to compromise my integrity. I have lost and gained and lost again yet I choose to retain my faith in God. I’ve seen how things can and do come together when I remain faithful. Yes, I am bearing witness to my God and no.
I’ve been able to help counsel other sex abuse victims into survivors because I have survived it.
I can identify with people who live in pain and give them some relieve because I actually understand what it takes to smile through the pain. We both get to feel a little less lonely.
I befriend those who are less fortunate than me and are rejected by others who live in my income bracket because I remember living in poverty and what it took to claw my way out. I received help, and now I can give back.
I have learned many trades and have many marketable skills. I have the ability to adapt and overcome quickly because I have failed and rebuilt so many times in the past that I’ve lost count. This experience helps me hold the hands of others fighting for the first time.
I know what it’s like to be rejected by my church. I draw on that memory and emotion to welcome others to my church. I am a sinner, I am no better than any other sinner regardless of their sin.
I share my experience of transitioning from victim to survivor, so others can see that it is possible.
I don’t know how God will help me manage the situation with my daughter but I trust in God that He will either change the heart of her abuser so he treats her as she deserves, or that God will give her the strength to remember her roots and break free. Taking an active role will only enable the cycle of abuse to continue and doing the obvious would destroy any chances of reconciliation with my daughter. I remain faithful.
Why does God let bad things happen? Because He made us in His image and wants us to have opportunity to love one another even when it means helping another person though a similar set of challenges we once saw as God being a dead beat dad to us.
From the show Highway to Heaven: People often ask “Where is God?” when bad things happen. I respond “Where are God’s people?”
Matthew West wrote a song that also applies in my mind:
(https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/matthewwest/dosomething.html)
@The_Doc_Man. I come to you in love with this wish: I pray that you will find peace. Maybe my faith is a crutch I lean on in hard times for strength but it is also a reason for me to rejoice when the light comes back into my life. Whether you find your peace in God or in your own moral code that compels you to be a good person, I wish you peace.
It is entirely possible that I am mis-guided for turning to my religion while finding so much fault in how it is practiced. I am certain that inconsistencies can be found in the Bible, especially after being translated so many times. I also understand as a bit of a dummy Christian who hasn’t properly studied the Bible I can rest on a few points:
1. God is the only rightful judge. (Bible)
2. Jesus summed it up for us during the sermon on the mount: If you can’t get anything else right, love one another.
3. Per my friend Larry: I may not agree with Christianity, but I sure do appreciate the lessons your Christ tried to teach you. (paraphrased)
I have survived being repeatedly raped by my uncle and being groomed for the sex trade starting before I was in Kindergarten. I have survived migraines that lasted for days at a time from the time I was three until my first neck surgery in 2013. I have scoliosis and unfused vertebrae in my lower back that cause me pain daily. I was beaten almost daily by my brothers (being older brothers) and mother (discipline). I fought on the playground almost daily beating up bullies. I lost the guidance of education when my teacher drove off the side of a mountain in fifth grade. I have been a drug addict, a sex addict, a negative person with a very sharp tongue (and still working on that). I have worked since I was six years old and had to reinvent myself at least four times in my 40 years on this earth. I know what it’s like to eat nothing but oatmeal for months only to follow that up with generic boxed mac & cheese because that’s all we had to eat and it was provides by the uncle taking liberties with me. I have survived multiple suicide attempts, two heart attacks, two surgeries on my neck, poverty, failure, distress, physical and emotional pain that has been relentless throughout my life. I spent three years rescuing my daughter from her abuser only to watch her run back to him within hours until I took the advice of my therapist and cut ties until she leaves him; this means I have yet to meet my first grandson who is now 5 months old. I have given my best at jobs for people who don’t deserve my used toilet paper because I refuse to compromise my integrity. I have lost and gained and lost again yet I choose to retain my faith in God. I’ve seen how things can and do come together when I remain faithful. Yes, I am bearing witness to my God and no.
I’ve been able to help counsel other sex abuse victims into survivors because I have survived it.
I can identify with people who live in pain and give them some relieve because I actually understand what it takes to smile through the pain. We both get to feel a little less lonely.
I befriend those who are less fortunate than me and are rejected by others who live in my income bracket because I remember living in poverty and what it took to claw my way out. I received help, and now I can give back.
I have learned many trades and have many marketable skills. I have the ability to adapt and overcome quickly because I have failed and rebuilt so many times in the past that I’ve lost count. This experience helps me hold the hands of others fighting for the first time.
I know what it’s like to be rejected by my church. I draw on that memory and emotion to welcome others to my church. I am a sinner, I am no better than any other sinner regardless of their sin.
I share my experience of transitioning from victim to survivor, so others can see that it is possible.
I don’t know how God will help me manage the situation with my daughter but I trust in God that He will either change the heart of her abuser so he treats her as she deserves, or that God will give her the strength to remember her roots and break free. Taking an active role will only enable the cycle of abuse to continue and doing the obvious would destroy any chances of reconciliation with my daughter. I remain faithful.
Why does God let bad things happen? Because He made us in His image and wants us to have opportunity to love one another even when it means helping another person though a similar set of challenges we once saw as God being a dead beat dad to us.
From the show Highway to Heaven: People often ask “Where is God?” when bad things happen. I respond “Where are God’s people?”
Matthew West wrote a song that also applies in my mind:
(https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/matthewwest/dosomething.html)
I woke up this morning
Saw a world full of trouble now
I thought, "How'd we ever get so far down?"
And "How's it ever gonna turn around?"
So, I turned my eyes to Heaven,
I thought, "God, why don't You do something?"
Well, I just couldn't bear the thought of
People living in poverty,
Children sold into slavery.
The thought disgusted me.
So, I shook my fist at Heaven,
I said, "God, why don't You do something?"
He said, "I did." Yeah. "I created you."
Saw a world full of trouble now
I thought, "How'd we ever get so far down?"
And "How's it ever gonna turn around?"
So, I turned my eyes to Heaven,
I thought, "God, why don't You do something?"
Well, I just couldn't bear the thought of
People living in poverty,
Children sold into slavery.
The thought disgusted me.
So, I shook my fist at Heaven,
I said, "God, why don't You do something?"
He said, "I did." Yeah. "I created you."
@The_Doc_Man. I come to you in love with this wish: I pray that you will find peace. Maybe my faith is a crutch I lean on in hard times for strength but it is also a reason for me to rejoice when the light comes back into my life. Whether you find your peace in God or in your own moral code that compels you to be a good person, I wish you peace.
AI, you have been through the wringer. I acknowledge that each of us must come to terms with our reality in our own way. You have your choice. I made mine. I believe you are familiar with this old chestnut: Each of us must come to terms with God individually. I have come to different terms of understanding than you have. I question whether I SHOULD respond to some of your Biblical comments in an attempt of refutation. You see, I respect pain and suffering and offer my sympathies. A couple of your comments actually work for me too.
I see the Bible as the accumulated wisdom of a people - the Jewish people of the eastern Mediterranean area. But that wisdom, to me, was given through parables, not histories. I see the Bible as the equivalent to Aesop's Fables or Grimm's Faerie Tales; a bunch of stories to amuse, amaze, and (sometimes) to instruct young children from an era lacking mass communication and no way to keep unruly children quiet at night.
According to anthropologists, the "village storyteller" was the keeper of history and culture. So the stories were illustrative of cultural principles, not necessarily stories of real events - the classic example of a parable. To me, the Bible is NOT about God. It is about people who believed in God and told what they believed. There is a nuance of difference.
That difference doesn't invalidate good advice, such as the values of love and forgiveness. The idea of loving your neighbor as you love yourself? If only we could! Some of the parables are excellent in that their principles make sense. I particularly like the one about the Sower and the Seeds. The thrust of that parable is that we are all different. We cannot curse the rocky field for its poor yield if we do not endeavor to remove the rocks and help it produce more grain (speaking figuratively, of course.) We can't love the high-producing field and hate the low-producing one. Both are simply doing the best they can within their nature.
The position I eventually reached during my family crisis was the result of long and deep study. I have heard so many stories about how the Bible is the unerring word of God, but modern science and painstaking research on the part of many people simply doesn't support the stories that would have proved God's existence. To me, the Bible is a big scam. I'll draw out the analogy.
It is like an investment scammer running, say, a Ponzi scheme. You get glowing promises that if you invest in this thing, your rewards will be great and will come to you at the time that you need them. But you have to keep up with regular investments. You can't default on any of the payments or you will invalidate the deal. So... if you ask to see the "capital" you have been accumulating, you get nothing substantial. If you ask for an advance, you get nothing. Then, if you ask to withdraw your investment, the manager does a blitz on you to convince you to stay invested, stay focused, stay with the plan, and TRUST his word because otherwise you get nothing and even could face severe penalties that would wipe out all of the investment. And now here is the crowing brilliance: The investment is being held in a place you cannot get to right now and because that investment's manager maintains secrecy, you can't go there until the investment "matures." You can't ask direct questions of this manager and expect any answers. There is no publication of that manager's purpose or strategy. Here is where the Ponzi scheme varies from Biblical worship: Because of the nature of the Biblical investment, the payoff doesn't occur until AFTER you die, so you can't even come back and tell others whether it was a scam.
I'm going to avoid detailed refutation for now. But I will say that I have learned so many things that prove the Bible is NOT unerring that it becomes very hard for me to make it a major factor in my life. There are whole sections that are clearly false based on modern science that I have to treat it as a badly flawed reference. And that means that I cannot trust it as any more than as I described above.
On re-reading an earlier post in this thread, I realized I had left an argument incompletely elaborated. I'll finish this one:
When a televised evangelist type tells us "This disaster is God's way of punishing us" I have to call bullshit. The preachers ALWAYS tell us that we are not permitted to know the mind of God. We are not allowed to know God's plan. God works in mysterious ways. Yeah? Then how do THEY know that the disaster wasn't purely based on natural phenomena? Do THEY have a direct pipeline to God? Usually, if you press them hard enough, they will admit that their statements about such events are based purely on belief or faith, not fact.
They have the same Bible that we do. They have the same teachings that we do. They CAN'T know the reason for disasters any more than we can. Actually, I do know the reason for disasters: Stuff happens. Not because of insufficient prayers. Not because of lustful thoughts. Though in some cases, stuff happens because greed and cutting corners leads to shoddy workmanship or bad products. But in the latter cases, evidence can be found that the event was man-made, not divinely initiated. Therefore, when Pat Robertson (on his 700 Club) proclaims that a given disaster is God's punishment, I just want to slap him hard.
If you really DO read the Bible in depth, you find that God is portrayed as an entity of spirit, not of the flesh. God doesn't give a rat's patoot about your body. He prepares a place for your spirit, or so the stories say. God doesn't intervene in worldly affairs. His kingdom is not of this world. The signs are there in the Bible that He doesn't care about disasters. Therefore, I spit at the feet of those who proclaim that "disaster X is God's direct punishment for our sins."
I see the Bible as the accumulated wisdom of a people - the Jewish people of the eastern Mediterranean area. But that wisdom, to me, was given through parables, not histories. I see the Bible as the equivalent to Aesop's Fables or Grimm's Faerie Tales; a bunch of stories to amuse, amaze, and (sometimes) to instruct young children from an era lacking mass communication and no way to keep unruly children quiet at night.
According to anthropologists, the "village storyteller" was the keeper of history and culture. So the stories were illustrative of cultural principles, not necessarily stories of real events - the classic example of a parable. To me, the Bible is NOT about God. It is about people who believed in God and told what they believed. There is a nuance of difference.
That difference doesn't invalidate good advice, such as the values of love and forgiveness. The idea of loving your neighbor as you love yourself? If only we could! Some of the parables are excellent in that their principles make sense. I particularly like the one about the Sower and the Seeds. The thrust of that parable is that we are all different. We cannot curse the rocky field for its poor yield if we do not endeavor to remove the rocks and help it produce more grain (speaking figuratively, of course.) We can't love the high-producing field and hate the low-producing one. Both are simply doing the best they can within their nature.
The position I eventually reached during my family crisis was the result of long and deep study. I have heard so many stories about how the Bible is the unerring word of God, but modern science and painstaking research on the part of many people simply doesn't support the stories that would have proved God's existence. To me, the Bible is a big scam. I'll draw out the analogy.
It is like an investment scammer running, say, a Ponzi scheme. You get glowing promises that if you invest in this thing, your rewards will be great and will come to you at the time that you need them. But you have to keep up with regular investments. You can't default on any of the payments or you will invalidate the deal. So... if you ask to see the "capital" you have been accumulating, you get nothing substantial. If you ask for an advance, you get nothing. Then, if you ask to withdraw your investment, the manager does a blitz on you to convince you to stay invested, stay focused, stay with the plan, and TRUST his word because otherwise you get nothing and even could face severe penalties that would wipe out all of the investment. And now here is the crowing brilliance: The investment is being held in a place you cannot get to right now and because that investment's manager maintains secrecy, you can't go there until the investment "matures." You can't ask direct questions of this manager and expect any answers. There is no publication of that manager's purpose or strategy. Here is where the Ponzi scheme varies from Biblical worship: Because of the nature of the Biblical investment, the payoff doesn't occur until AFTER you die, so you can't even come back and tell others whether it was a scam.
I'm going to avoid detailed refutation for now. But I will say that I have learned so many things that prove the Bible is NOT unerring that it becomes very hard for me to make it a major factor in my life. There are whole sections that are clearly false based on modern science that I have to treat it as a badly flawed reference. And that means that I cannot trust it as any more than as I described above.
On re-reading an earlier post in this thread, I realized I had left an argument incompletely elaborated. I'll finish this one:
When a televised evangelist type tells us "This disaster is God's way of punishing us" I have to call bullshit. The preachers ALWAYS tell us that we are not permitted to know the mind of God. We are not allowed to know God's plan. God works in mysterious ways. Yeah? Then how do THEY know that the disaster wasn't purely based on natural phenomena? Do THEY have a direct pipeline to God? Usually, if you press them hard enough, they will admit that their statements about such events are based purely on belief or faith, not fact.
They have the same Bible that we do. They have the same teachings that we do. They CAN'T know the reason for disasters any more than we can. Actually, I do know the reason for disasters: Stuff happens. Not because of insufficient prayers. Not because of lustful thoughts. Though in some cases, stuff happens because greed and cutting corners leads to shoddy workmanship or bad products. But in the latter cases, evidence can be found that the event was man-made, not divinely initiated. Therefore, when Pat Robertson (on his 700 Club) proclaims that a given disaster is God's punishment, I just want to slap him hard.
If you really DO read the Bible in depth, you find that God is portrayed as an entity of spirit, not of the flesh. God doesn't give a rat's patoot about your body. He prepares a place for your spirit, or so the stories say. God doesn't intervene in worldly affairs. His kingdom is not of this world. The signs are there in the Bible that He doesn't care about disasters. Therefore, I spit at the feet of those who proclaim that "disaster X is God's direct punishment for our sins."
I spent a lot of time and put a lot of thought into that response. I believe we agree on many points of the Bible itself. It has been translated and edited more times than I believe anybody living knows. I see it as the written version of a thousand-year-old oral history, not a transcription of the mind of God. it is a book that has been under control of mankind for too long and I've often suspected that it has been edited to be used as a method of population control. None-the-less I retain my faith in God. That is not to say that I have some irrational faith in a book, even though I believe there is much to learn from it.
I am very intelligent and analytical, however I am also an emotional and thinking being. I must nurture both sides with an open mind while constantly checking my expectations to make sure they are reasonable.
I cannot and will not attempt to answer for the crimes and manipulations of others in the guise of religion. I will not stop doing what I believe to be right even though it is inspired by my religion knowing full well that others disagree with me. Nor will I attempt to force anyone to accept my views.
Thank you for disagreeing with me respectfully. I believe we can spend an entire weekend discussing this face-to-face and still never cover all the details, it's simply too big of a subject for me.
I wish you the best and look forward to our next conversation
I am very intelligent and analytical, however I am also an emotional and thinking being. I must nurture both sides with an open mind while constantly checking my expectations to make sure they are reasonable.
I cannot and will not attempt to answer for the crimes and manipulations of others in the guise of religion. I will not stop doing what I believe to be right even though it is inspired by my religion knowing full well that others disagree with me. Nor will I attempt to force anyone to accept my views.
Thank you for disagreeing with me respectfully. I believe we can spend an entire weekend discussing this face-to-face and still never cover all the details, it's simply too big of a subject for me.
I wish you the best and look forward to our next conversation
Without doubt. The King James Version of the Bible is KNOWN by those who have researched it to be one of the most poetic translations but also one of the most biased. James II of England was a known misogynist and used the Monarch's Golden Rule: Them that has the gold makes the rules. He commissioned the translation but advised the translators about which options to take when translating. A lot of the Bible's suppression of women is a reflection of a primitive patriarchal society but some of it is a reflection of the warped misogyny of the guy who paid the translators. James wanted to "keep women in their place" - which was, of course, staying home and taking care of men.
I know I'm not coming at this in anything like the depth or breadth that you have both brought to the discussion, but I understand what Al says about the separation between religion and faith. I have very little time for organised religion (I was brought up as a Roman Catholic), but I have less of a hard time ascribing to the notion of faith. And yet faith is intangible, difficult to define. For me, faith means hope. Not just hope, but love, optimism, belief. Do I believe in God? No - but I believe in something, even if that something was the event that began our universe. I'm agnostic and anti-theist rather than atheist.
I was watching one of my favourite films the other night - Contact, written by Carl Sagan. It explores the themes of science vs theology. And there's this little section of dialogue which I keep returning to. (For those that haven't seen it, Palmer is a theologian, and Ellie is a scientist - and she's just challenged him to prove God's existence.
Palmer Joss: [Ellie challenges Palmer to prove the existence of God] Did you love your father?
Ellie Arroway: What?
Palmer Joss: Your dad. Did you love him?
Ellie Arroway: Yes, very much.
Palmer Joss: Prove it.
There are some things we know without being able to give proof. Faith is one of those things.
I was watching one of my favourite films the other night - Contact, written by Carl Sagan. It explores the themes of science vs theology. And there's this little section of dialogue which I keep returning to. (For those that haven't seen it, Palmer is a theologian, and Ellie is a scientist - and she's just challenged him to prove God's existence.
Palmer Joss: [Ellie challenges Palmer to prove the existence of God] Did you love your father?
Ellie Arroway: What?
Palmer Joss: Your dad. Did you love him?
Ellie Arroway: Yes, very much.
Palmer Joss: Prove it.
There are some things we know without being able to give proof. Faith is one of those things.
Bee, it's a great movie reference. For me, there is an issue of "big trust" vs. "little trust."
For Palmer to believe that Ellie loved her father is an issue of "little trust." Doesn't take much faith to believe a person's statement that they loved thus and such a person. Almost no stretch of the imagination is required.
For Ellie to believe in God in the way that Palmer believes would be an issue of "big trust." It is a HUGE leap of faith. But at the same time, for Ellie to believe that Palmer believes in God is a "little trust" issue.
If you must couch it as a matter of faith, then you can easily put faith in a person's word that they "love X" or "believe in X." First, because there is no obvious reason to lie about such a thing; and second, because it is easy to give credence (put faith) in a personal-level statement. For something as far-reaching as the existence of God, however, the scope of the claim is where there is a problem.
There, the issue is again "big trust" - but in this case, there is some scientifically obtained evidence to corroborate the description of the event, even if our description is not complete. Let's call it the "Big Bang" even though that name is actually terribly flawed and misleading. We KNOW that something occurred and a lot of skull-sweat has been shed over the implications of the available evidence. We have the "red shift" evidence and the "cosmic microwave background radiation." The latter won a Nobel Prize for the Bell Labs researchers who discovered it. We have various other experimental observations that seem to indicate the truth of the BB. We have gaps, but we ARE talking about something from over a dozen billion years ago. (A "dozen billion" has this certain ring to it, don't you think?)
By contrast, the "Fiat Lux" story of creation requires a LOT of assumptions not borne out by any physical evidence, and in fact is CONTRADICTED by some physical evidence regarding the order of creation milestone events. Further, that evidence is all in the category of "hearsay" because nobody was there to WATCH what was done to bring about the existence of the heavens and earth. Well,... if you believe the story then GOD was there, but He didn't need to keep a written diary.
Speaking of "Fiat Lux" - there is an Isaac Asimov short story called "The Final Question" that is a MUST-read for anyone who likes science-fiction and stories about computers. I hope you can handle a somewhat different viewpoint of the creation story. If I say too much, I will poison the story for you. And no, this is NOT some variant of The Matrix or some other similar movie.
For Palmer to believe that Ellie loved her father is an issue of "little trust." Doesn't take much faith to believe a person's statement that they loved thus and such a person. Almost no stretch of the imagination is required.
For Ellie to believe in God in the way that Palmer believes would be an issue of "big trust." It is a HUGE leap of faith. But at the same time, for Ellie to believe that Palmer believes in God is a "little trust" issue.
If you must couch it as a matter of faith, then you can easily put faith in a person's word that they "love X" or "believe in X." First, because there is no obvious reason to lie about such a thing; and second, because it is easy to give credence (put faith) in a personal-level statement. For something as far-reaching as the existence of God, however, the scope of the claim is where there is a problem.
There, the issue is again "big trust" - but in this case, there is some scientifically obtained evidence to corroborate the description of the event, even if our description is not complete. Let's call it the "Big Bang" even though that name is actually terribly flawed and misleading. We KNOW that something occurred and a lot of skull-sweat has been shed over the implications of the available evidence. We have the "red shift" evidence and the "cosmic microwave background radiation." The latter won a Nobel Prize for the Bell Labs researchers who discovered it. We have various other experimental observations that seem to indicate the truth of the BB. We have gaps, but we ARE talking about something from over a dozen billion years ago. (A "dozen billion" has this certain ring to it, don't you think?)
By contrast, the "Fiat Lux" story of creation requires a LOT of assumptions not borne out by any physical evidence, and in fact is CONTRADICTED by some physical evidence regarding the order of creation milestone events. Further, that evidence is all in the category of "hearsay" because nobody was there to WATCH what was done to bring about the existence of the heavens and earth. Well,... if you believe the story then GOD was there, but He didn't need to keep a written diary.
Speaking of "Fiat Lux" - there is an Isaac Asimov short story called "The Final Question" that is a MUST-read for anyone who likes science-fiction and stories about computers. I hope you can handle a somewhat different viewpoint of the creation story. If I say too much, I will poison the story for you. And no, this is NOT some variant of The Matrix or some other similar movie.