Voting is pointless

Bee

Founding Member
#21
I think there are some cross-overs, and with the advent of the internet and 24/7 access to information, the speed at which cultures bleed into each other is increasing. But from my own studies of sociology, application of PC in the UK has largely been informed by legislation translated into policy. Remember my example of Birmingham City Council (not Birmingham, Alabama) banning baa baa black sheep on the political correctness thread. That wasn't informed by PC as applied in the US, but as a direct policy from the Race Relations Act (1976).

What you don't know is that I began my career in the public sector as a Policy Officer, so this stuff is bread and butter to me.
 

Insane_AI

Founding Member
#22
There was a time when two grown men could kick each other's butts and shake hands when it's over. Now, even if neither wants to press charges, the police will charge one or both.

There is no settling things between ourselves any longer, this is why we sue.
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#23
Did the Race Relations Act come into force in a vacuum, or has the work of Martin Luther King (etc) been influential to the West?
 

Bee

Founding Member
#25
The Race Relations Act 1965 was the first piece of legislation in the UK to address the prohibition of racial discrimination and followed previously unsuccessful bills. The Act banned racial discrimination in public places and made the promotion of hatred on the grounds of ‘colour, race, or ethnic or national origins’ an offence.

The Bill received Royal Assent on 8 November 1965, and came into force a month later on 8 December 1965. It was introduced by the Government in response to the increasing number of people who had moved to the UK from other Commonwealth countries; at the time of the Act being passed there were nearly one million immigrants living in the UK. It was criticised for failing to address vital areas where discrimination was most prevalent, namely employment and wider aspects of acquiring accommodation. This led to the passing of the 1968 Race Relations Act, which made unlawful acts of discrimination within employment, housing and advertising.
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#26
It took activists in the US to improve racial equality. Did it just happen in the UK, or do you think they looked over the pond at what was happening there first?
 

The_Doc_Man

Founding Member
#27
As to your "car accident more likely" argument, that fails in that you dilute its effectiveness when you can also use your car when NOT going to vote. It becomes a "background noise" item. The only way to avoid that one is not only do you not vote, but you never go out to get food or groceries; never go to hospital, clinic, or doctor visit; never go to church, library, or school; never go to an office job; never go out on a date with a partner of your preference... AND you never use a cab. In essence, you NEVER leave your house ever again. So the "car accident" applies to so much that the accident while voting becomes vanishingly small as a unique or significant factor.

Having watched A LOT of US politics during the election period, I was amazed Hilliary didn't go to prison!
To be perfectly honest, I'm not too sure either. I know that she and Bill have a network of protectors. There was a time when Bill was running for president that some really questionable circumstances were available online, at least 13 bodies had a certain "Arkansas backwoods politics" stamp on them. But witnesses disappeared, others maintained silence, and it became impossible to drag out any evidence. So no one - including me - can do anything other than speculate. Which is why I do not directly accuse anybody of anything. But there has been a lot of suspicion associated with that family for decades.

I would argue that you spend that voting time doing something useful and charitable. It will have a net plus rather than a net minus.
I would argue that my meager resources are inadequate to do anything useful and of any charitable significance. Which is analogous to your argument about the ineffectiveness of voting.

(Note: The latter was intended as argument by analogy.)
 
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Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#31
Thanks for the reference Doc. I would like to clarify my position, and it involves a paradox!

Most objections to my view on voting stems from creating strawman arguments, that are then easy to knock down. They are misrepresentations about what I actually say. I am very precise in what I say! I state X, but the emotions from objectors then distort my X. They attack Y, stating I am claiming Y when in fact I am talking about X! People are not listening to what I am actually saying, since it goes against every grain of their entrenched belief system. It brings about the same feeling in me that an atheist has when talking with a religious person about the evidence for God.

So let me explain.

To see that 1 vote decided the outcome of kentucky house is a great example of proving my point, not disproving it. I can approach this from multiple angles but because I want to cook my nachos and I am hungry, I will truncate my reply!

1. Providing a single example proves how rare it is. I would like two examples please to half the rareness!

2. The fewer the number of voters, the more likely I will vote, since my vote then has more weight.

3. When looking at the single example, you then have to factor in how many different districts there are where people vote. So, if once a year there was just one case of winning by one vote, yet there are 435 members in the House of Representatives (if that is how it works), then you have a 1/435 chance (or a 0.23% chance) of your vote doing something. i.e. negligible.

4. How many times in the past 10 years has there been a victory based on one vote? That example could have been the only time, thus changing the odds to a 0.023% chance of having an effect, if this is the case.

5. If as a non-voter I deserve the government I get, does that mean I also deserve the best government if they get in too?

6. If everybody thought the way I did, then nobody would vote. Then I would change my strategy and vote, since it has more weight. (see #2).

7. I believe in democracy and the voting system. Yet here is where the paradox kicks in. I believe voting is good because then you get what the majority seek. Yet at the same time, my vote is next to worthless since the probability of it affecting anything is incredibly small.

8. The abuse to the environment from people travelling to vote, while their own vote is next to worthless, is contrary to the approach to save the environment.

9. Is there any evidence that having a larger sample size of voters is better than a smaller sample size? How do we know if the proportions will have any significant difference to the outcome? The proportion may be very similar.

10. If a vote is nearly 50:50, when viewed from a meta perspective of the whole country, if your one vote tilted things in your favoured direction, you got your own way. Great. But almost half the remaining people didn't. It is a bit like Brexit. The vote was close. Half in, half out. So viewed from the perspective of net gain by individual count, there is virtually none. Half winners, half losers. This is poorly explained as I have only just thought about this perspective, and it is my weakest argument in this case. But I hope you see my point.

I have already given the arguments of risk to life while travelling to the voting booth, and perhaps also the opportunity cost of the time spent doing something pointless.

To my mind, the only reason to vote is if you enjoy the process itself. Then it conveys some tangible benefit, rather than a pipedream. It is an illusion if you think your individual vote is making a jot of difference. Sadly, this illusion has conned the world!

[Edit: I didn't end up truncating my reply and now I am hungrier than ever!]
 
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#32
And therein lies the problem. Some of your answers trend towards "winners/losers" - and sadly, USA politics has gone that way. That is because these days, people hate the idea of compromise. They are greedy. They don't want half the pie. They want it all. As long as politics is about winners and losers, the raw number of votes in total is less important than the ratio for each side of the issue. And there, a one-vote win IS possible. Most states in the USA impose a voting law that says if you have more than two candidates and none get a majority of "50% + 1 vote" then you MUST have a runoff between the two highest vote-getters. That turns it into a binary question and then there WILL be a winner. Or at least I don't recall hearing of any vote that was actually tied with a large population of participating voters.

Your "my vote doesn't matter" attitude is how elections are LOST. There is where you do yourself and your country a disservice. The idea of "majority rule" is all well and good but if you cannot determine the will of the majority because they can't be bothered to vote, then it is like the old "caveat emptor" rule - buyer (or in this case, voter) beware. You get what you pay for (or vote for). And if you don't vote, you are trusting the OTHER folks who are voting to give you something good. If they don't, it ain't THEIR fault. If you don't indicate your political position by voting, then you don't have a leg to stand on when complaining.

That "50/50" position would actually be ideal because compromises would have to be reached. People would have to realize that this pie can only be sliced so thin, and compromises will prevent "greedy cuts" from "cutting you out" altogether.
 
#33
Voting in the Presidential race in the United States servers one purpose only: To give its citizens the illusion of choice. If the populace ever figures this out, life as the world knows it, will be forever altered - ina good or bad way will have to be decided by future generations
 
#35
Actually, I should have said the illusion of control. I honestly do not believe votes are counted and that the only candidates that make it to the Oval Office are those who were decided upon LONG before the election took place.

Most will click thier tongues, shake thier heads and patronize me by calling me a conspiracy theorist. Doesn’t bother me, I’m used to it...I consider those people as being willfully ignorant.
 

The_Doc_Man

Founding Member
#36
Actually, Gent, if that were true, we would be discussing president Clinton right now. She's the ultimate conspirator if you look at her history. The fact that Trump won makes it CLEAR that the Electoral College actually DOES work. Perhaps not perfectly, but it works!
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#37
Nauticalgent, an interesting perspective. And no doubt there are many others that have a similar perspective. It is not mine, but it just shows how many different angles there are on this stuff! It is a bit like on the global warming.
 
#38
Hi there Doc, and I knew that was going to be your reply. And I would have to respectfully disagree. Although I got it wrong, for I was dead certain that Trump’s presence was to ensure a HRC victory, I still think he won becuase the right people knew he would continue to have their best interests in mind.

I’ll admit, I do not have all the answers, but I DO know that no one sits in that office unless the right entities will it.
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#39
Do you believe there is a Russia-like corruption going on with the voting system? I have to say, after watching a lot of news on the US election, I was astonished at the level of corruption, bribes, pay-to-play and so on.
 
#40
Hello there Jon, Russia-like corruption? Not entirely sure what that means, as I intentionally bury my head in the sand like an ostrich when it comes to “news”...

There are many instances of voter machine fraud in US elections...programmers have actually testified before congress admitting that they wrote code to skew the final count (Google Diebold scandals when you finish your nachos). It as in the case of Trumps victory, you really don’t have to resort to that. Allow me to explain...

Growing up in the US and taking Civics and US Governmemt courses, we are all introduced to the Electoral College and how it works and WHY it exists in the first place. I will not lead you down THAT rabbit hole but I will tell you of a common misconception that I had until the most recent election. I was under the believe that EC votes were bound to the popular vote of their applicable state. And in some cases that IS the case. However more than a few states are not held to that considerstion. So, if a state overwhelmingly votes for one candidate, a small group of EC voters, with no real vetting in place, can disregard the “will of the people” and flip the vote how they please. Now in WHAT universe does that even come close to a Democratic paradigm ? It is how Trump managed to win...

Now, you didn’t ask but I will share this last bit so you will hopefully understand my interest is not tied to a political party. My interests lies in trying to preserve (restore?) what little integrity the US political system has: I was happy Trump won...it pissed off ALL the right people and for some reason it makes me happy when spoiled brats don’t get their way. Childish I know but when you are as cynical as I am when it come to politics, you take pleasure where you can...
 
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