The Writers Thread

[Jon]

There seems to be a ton of writers on this forum: Me, Bee, the Doc, Uncle (only just found that out). I gave myself a capital M as everyone else had a capital. This is surprising. Since there are so many authors here (in percentage terms!), I figure it might be useful to have a thread dedicated to this topic. I know that many writers have productivity issues, unable to make consistent progress and waiting for moments of inspiration. But I remember reading a quote from a famous writer who said, "Inspiration starts at 9am sharp!"

So, to the writers in The Mind Tavern, do you have any plans for this year regarding writing? Are you currently writing anything? Do you struggle with motivation, confidence, criticism or creative blocks?

 

[Bee]

Anne is also a writer.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

For me, the "idea" is the starting point. You have to have an idea, a situation, an event, SOMETHING that leads you to the story you will tell. Since I touch type, I can sit at a keyboard and blow through several pages of events. I got started from an event a LONG time ago when my mother was still alive and at home but beginning to go down that dark road of Alzheimer's Disease. I stayed home but kept quiet so she could rest. I would read a lot of fantasy and science fiction, my favorite two genres. Found a quadralogy which will remain nameless that when I finished it, made me feel as though I had been ripped off of $10, at $2.50 per volume of the set. I felt SO bad that I finally told myself.... (this is one of THOSE conversations) "Self, put up or STFU and go on about your business." And I couldn't shut up, so I started writing as an experiment.

Mechanically, I had an old Osborne One computer running an early disk-based O/S (called CP/M) and it had Wordstar. I decided to do a fantasy "noble quest" type of story, spent a little time on putting some insights into my characters' personalities, and then developed a background culture for a world where magic existed and had rules. Plopped my characters into different situations that would soon intersect, and then just started imagining how they would react / interact.

I would get in the mood to write every couple of days, but in between I would go back and do a "polishing" pass where I looked for grammar errors, spelling errors (though Wordstar DID have spell-checkers), and technical adjustments. I also went through each scene to see if overnight, my views about "natural" behavior looked OK. Eventually I got my first PC and it ALSO had Wordstar. I have since converted twice - once to Word Perfect and then once more to MS Office / Word. But the "create, polish, review" cycle has become my habit.

 

[Bee]

I am (as per another thread somewhere) quite fond of the old coincidence. I know that's exactly what it is. There is no pre-destination. Or, there might be if you are a fatalist, but that's for another thread...

I've been doing a lot of thinking about writing recently because I'm having a hard time of it. Ultimately, I think that's because of all of the massive changes that are taking place in my life just now. The net effect is that I have been thinking of giving up writing.

You see, I have this innate belief that I've just been very lucky - and as we know, beliefs are hard to shift. I am not prolific as a writer - it take me a long time to produce something and I will then spend a long time editing and polishing. So my output is very low. That said, and I'm conscious this may come across as arrogant - but I promise you, that's not how I mean it - everything that I have written since 2012 when I started writing properly, has been published. I've been rejected 3 times and each time I sent the story back out and it found a home somewhere else. Even my novel was picked up by the first publisher I sent it to. But my luck has to run out at some point and I'm afraid.

The novel has had mixed reviews - I'm okay with that as I knew some people would get it, but it wouldn't be for everyone. Even so, it's had more good reviews than bad and again, has been recommended as a book of the year by one of our national papers.

I had all but decided to stop writing - certainly for the foreseeable future - when I popped into a branch of WHSmith at London Bridge Station yesterday. And there, on the shelf, was my book - the first time I'd actually seen one in a bookshop. And I've decided it's a sign for me to continue writing.

 

[Jon]

How often do the top writers have a hit book on their first time out?

 

[Bee]

It's very rare for a debut to be a bestseller

 

[Bee]

But a bit of trivia - the book to the left, Hot Milk, was shortlisted for the Mann Booker prize. And the book to the right, A Short History of Tractors... was one of the books I had to study for my MA. So, I'm in good company by dint of name, if nothing else.

 

[Jon]

The point I am trying to make is if it is perfectly normal for someones debut novel to not be a best seller, why are you comparing yourself to outliers?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I wish I could remember the author's name, but I saw this only once in Writer's Digest magazine from the late 1970s or early 1980s. I remember reading an interview with a well-known and highly successful author who revealed that he submitted his debut novel to four potential publishers. He got three rejections. The fourth one took a deeper look. They got to "editor vs. author" talks, reconciling their views, and the author finally had to pull the novel due to creative differences that settled on one or two paragraphs. So the author submitted to four more publishers. The last (eighth) publisher liked it and agreed about the importance of the passage that had been the stumbling block. Since that first work and before this interview was published, the author in question had written eight or more other novels.

So Bee, don't worry about best-sellers. We can't all be J.K. Rowling or Christopher Paolini. And if you want to be remembered for your body of work, you have to HAVE a body of work.

 

[Bee]

I don't understand how you both think I'm worried about bestsellers? Nothing could be further from my mind. I'm saying that my core belief is that I am not talented, but lucky. And I'm struggling with how to change my core belief.

But it's ironic that I haven't, as a writer, been able to get that concept across...

 

[Jon]

It's because you said this today:

The novel has had mixed reviews - I'm okay with that as I knew some people would get it, but it wouldn't be for everyone.

And this on a previous occasion:

I'm having a crisis of confidence in relation to my writing too. I always knew it would be a book that some people would understand and others wouldn't. But there's been a couple of negative reviews lately and I'm more sensitive to it than I thought I'd be. At the same time, one of our national papers has recommended it as a book of the year, so why am I focusing on the negative reviews? I think I want to stop writing.

Consequently, it appears this has happened:

Mixed or negative reviews > sensitivity > crisis of confidence > want to stop writing.

That is why I am referring to what your expectations are. If you don't want negative reviews, don't write. All books get them. If you wanted your book to have more sales, create a book that you think will appeal to more of the public. e.g. Harold Robbins.

If you think you are just lucky, do you think that other writers that got published was pure skill? What about writers who didn't get published? Not enough skill? Or, like many things in life, is it both skill and luck? I read a book about this topic about 15 years ago. It was by an entrepreneur who made about $50M. I think this is the book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Success-Equation-Untangling-Business-Investing/dp/1422184234

Strangely, I thought it was Skill vs Luck or something like that. Maybe there was a title change, who knows.

 

[Bee]

I understand. But positive/negative reviews aren't (in my mind at least) linked to it being a bestseller. I've always said I'd never make enough money from writing to retire on. My problem is about whether I've had it too easy. As I said, everything I've written has been published. My novel was picked up straight away. I haven't had to suffer the endless rounds of rejections other authors have had to - and all of this leads me to worry that my luck will run out.

 

[Jon]

Define for me what you consider "out of luck"?

 

[Bee]

I've got used to everything I've submitted being published. Now I'm creatively paralysed because I fear that whatever I produce next won't live up to previous standards. A bit like second album syndrome.

 

[Jon]

So "out of luck" is not creating something as good as Liminal? What if it is better but you can't get it published?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Bee, people with a skill make their own luck. I guess I used a bad direction when talking "bestsellers" but I can tell you that there are people out there who write absolute DRIVEL and still get published. The guy who wrote that quadralogy that kick-started me into hobbyist writing was a prime example of bad writing. But HE got published. Then there is Jean Auel, whose writing can be infuriating, yet she sells books because WHAT she writes is engaging even if HOW she writes isn't. And let's take a SERIOUS look at J.K. Rowling, who wrote in a style for younger readers, but she had a good hero and a great story line. She had a whole lot of rejections during a tough time in her life, if I recall the bio-pic correctly. But she stuck with her ideas and look where she sits today because she stuck with it. You can say that it's an unfair comparison, but my point is that she suffered a lot of rejections too. She didn't give up. OK, maybe you won't write the next Harry Potter equivalent series, but that's true of a LOT of people. What does NOT happen is that writers who totally give up on themselves succeed anyway.

 

[Bee]

I don't seem to be able to make myself understood on this topic (the irony is heavy). So, I'll dip out for now - but thank you both for your responses.

 

[Jon]

What about Fifty Shades of Grey, one of the best selling books in history. The audience is for women, yet it plays into every sexist connotation out there. Billionaire hero, who oppresses women, yet they love it! Hmmm, perhaps its own hypocritical audience is tapping into an evolutionary truth that has become unpalatable in the modern era, where ideology trumps genetic reality.

 

[Bee]

Not all women love it, Jon. Many of us think it's terribly damaging. That's really a debate for another thread - this one is about writing, not sexism.

 

[Jon]

Ok Bee, if you have dipped out, let me dip in! My perspective on the chances of you creating something that is better than Liminal...

You have 3 possible outcomes: better than, equal to, or less than. The chances of your next book being equal to Liminal is highly unlikely. With hundreds of words, what are the chances? Incredibly slim. So, pragmatically speaking, you are left with two options: better than, or less than. To my mind, you have a 50:50 chance of doing better than your last book, or 50:50 chance of doing worse than your last book. Simple.

The same applies to J.K. Rowling, or any other author in fact.

Take any endeavour. Football teams, tennis stars, musicians. They all have a 50:50 chance of doing better than or worse than their previous performance.