The Alabama Ruling

Bee

Bee

Founding Member
#1
#1
The Senate in Alabama has moved that ALL abortions are to be illegal - including those where the pregnancy is as a result of rape or incest. Supporters say they expect the law to be blocked in court but hope that the appeals process will bring it before the Supreme Court. They want the court, which now has a conservative majority, to overturn the 1973 ruling legalising abortion.

Alabama's 35-seat Senate is dominated by men, and none of its four female senators backed the ban. It was then signed by Alabama's Republican governor, Kay Ivey (female).

Alabama is not the only state that wants to move to restrict abortions in this way.

There is so much I could say about this. So much. But ultimately it's so very, very sad and it feels like a step back to the dark ages. If it was happening in a developing country, I might understand the journey they have to go through in terms of thought process, but this is America. Leader of the First World.

Bad show, America. Bad show.
 
Jon

Jon

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#2
#2
I wonder if the 4 female senators were Democrats and the men were Republicans. Anyone know? There can be many reasons why the vote was split this way. Not all women believe that abortion should be allowed. And remember that both men and women voted to elect the senators, I would imagine. If a man elects a female senator, it doesn't necessarily mean that he voted her in to misrepresent his views on important topics. And the same the other way around.

It is also important to note that while the woman is the host, a woman's right to terminate the pregnancy is also trumping (get it?) the man's right to see his "future human" through to their first birthday.

The Democrats are campaigning - as I understand it - for terminations to carry out "post-birth", under certain circumstances. Is that not the dark ages?
 
Bee

Bee

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#3
#3
The composition of the Alabama State Senate is 27 Republican to 8 Democrats. The bill was passed by 25 white, male Republicans. Those are the facts.

Whatever the politics, all that this ruling will do is end safe abortions.

Abortions will still happen. But more women will die from botched abortions.
 
Bee

Bee

Founding Member
#4
#4
And on another point. Let's take the case of rape, or incest. Now, a woman (or girl) can be raped and if she falls pregnant as a result, HAS NO OPTION but to carry the pregnancy, or risk a felony.

It's medieval. It's inhumane. We can hypothesise till the cows come home on the moral arguments, but when it comes down to it, if it was your wife, your girlfriend, your sister/cousin/mother/aunt/friend - wouldn't you want her to be able to choose for herself? Would you want her to go through the additional trauma of unwanted pregnancy?
 
Bee

Bee

Founding Member
#5
#5
Oh, and one final point... why has this come forward now? It's because the balance of power has shifted in the Supreme Court with the appointment of...

Brett Kavanaugh.
 
T

The_Doc_Man

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#6
#6
I will only say this, because I have family in Alabama and know them to be generally fair-minded, loving people. The central part of the state - which I define to include Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, and Montgomery and all immediately surrounding counties - is a stronghold of the Southern Baptist Synod. A very large part of their beliefs on this matter come from a pulpit relating to a 2000-year old book. It is telling that one of their favorite spiritual hymns is "Give Me That Old-Time Religion." One of the verses ends with "It was good for the Hebrew children, it's good enough for me."

If they are going to live by a standard 2 millennia old, those of us with more modern viewpoints will have trouble understanding how they could even allow themselves to culturally stagnate like that. And yes, my family is from the area between Birmingham and Tuscaloosa. I have seen that attitude surface many times. I know to not engage them in debate. Excommunication from family isn't what I want.
 
Bee

Bee

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#7
#7
It's exactly that, Doc. Religion.

Religion is at the root of all harm, bigotry, mistrust, and wrongdoing in this world. This is today’s “pro-life” movement: arguing that pre-teen girls who are raped and impregnated by their fathers must be legally forced to have a baby, because God wanted it that way.

Well, f*ck that God.
 
Jon

Jon

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#8
#8
Ok, so I have the answer:

Of the 35 senators in the state, four are women, and they are all Democrats.
Click to expand...
You see, the women voting that way isn't necessarily because they are women, but because they are Democrats. I think it is a pretty good guess of mine that they were Democrats. That is why it is wrong to bring gender into it, because this issue tends to be heavily divided down political lines. And maybe saying "white" could be viewed as another attack on white men? I think skin colour is not really relevant here. It is just slurring a specific demographic repeatedly which seems to be a common theme from the left nowadays. I thought they were supposed to value tolerance, but identity politics has taken oven.

Yes, the Republicans have the balance of power in the Supreme court, so it is their "turn".
 
Bee

Bee

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#10
#10
Jon, your bias against Democrats is clouding your thinking.

This is NOT about politics. It's about religion being used to control and opress women. It just so happens that pro-lifers tend to be Republican.

Is it right that a woman can be raped and be forced to give birth?
Is it right that a father can impregnate his daughter and then she be forced to give birth?
Is it right that any doctor found guilty of performing an abortion can be jailed for 99 years?

All because of an unshakeable belief in someone's imaginary friend (God).
 
Jon

Jon

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#11
#11
If a doctor is deliberately breaking the law, they should be punished. What is the alternative? Anarchy.

My political preferences do not cloud my thinking about whether or not politics are influential in the abortion debate. Politics are a hugely relevant factor. Democrats tend to be pro-choice, Republicans tend to be pro-life. I think that is not disputable?

If you look at human life as a continuum from fertilized egg to death, then abortion is murder. If you view human life as a continuum from birth to death, then abortion isn't murder. Different people disagree on different timescales over if and where to draw the line. I don't think there is anything medieval about opinions that differ. Instead, it is reasoned positions from sides where values differ.

We can focus on the rights of the woman. But some people are horrified when they realise that often abortions include pulling the small limbs off a soon-to-be child. If you hear the descriptions of what is involved by previous abortion surgeons (if that is the right term), then it is hard to contemplate the morality of it all. From a video I watched, it was something along the lines of, "I rip off an arm, then a leg, you keep pulling limbs off but have to keep going to make sure you get the whole lot out." It was that kind of thing. Does that unborn "object" with a beating heart suffer pain?

And remember, some of these terminated "objects" are soon to be women. Perhaps 50% of them. Would you not be oppressing these female unborns to a right to continue their life?
 
Jon

Jon

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#13
#13
I answered one of yours and you didn't answer any of mine! :ROFLMAO:

[Edit: Correction. I did actually answer all of yours. I said it based on the viewpoint of what defines the human life continuum. If it starts at fertilisation, then it is right that a raped woman should give birth, since otherwise it is murder. If it starts at birth then termination is not murder and therefore they can choose.]
 
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T

The_Doc_Man

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#14
#14
Some religions claim that life begins either at separation of the umbilicus or at "first breath." SCOTUS missed the boat with Roe v. Wade because they disenfranchised all of Judaism (umbilicus.) I don't remember which denomination uses the King Solomon decision "the breath is the life" but that is the group that uses "first breath." To my crazy way of thinking, if you are going to let religion dictate abortion rights, then you have to step back and say that you cannot ban abortion in ANY trimester because you disenfranchise "late start of life" religions. But then again, they didn't ask me.

Jon, I hear you. Some abortions can be horrible to watch. But then, watch babies growing up in squalor because the mother's hopes of an education vanished when they couldn't get an abortion. Watch babies growing up as the center of Mom's ire because she has a thankless 20-year task with no sign of a husband or father figure and lifetime of social stigma. Which is better? A lifetime of suffering or a quick end to suffering?

Then, if we are going to play a religion card, let's not forget that a single mother who follows the religion called Christian Science has the option to refuse life-saving treatment of her child on religious grounds. In essence, they can let the little one die LEGALLY by refusing medical attention, and that is LONG after the child has been born. So if we are playing the religion/life/death card, what does birth have to do with it?
 
Uncle Gizmo

Uncle Gizmo

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#15
#15
Well I don't know much about American politics, however I'm pretty sure that you have to separate your state from your religion. This stinks of religion running the state!
 
Jon

Jon

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#18
#18
If the child is unborn, why is anyone bothered with killing the "baby" if abortion laws don't really consider it a baby, but instead just a pile of cells? There is no victim.
 
Bee

Bee

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#19
#19
But in Alabama, it is illegal to have an abortion because you are denying the 'baby' life - even if that life is the result of a father raping his daughter.

That's the whole point of this thread.
 
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