Is science fiction no longer science fiction?

[Jon]

Much of science fiction, I imagine, comes to pass. Does it therefore - over time - then lose status as science fiction and just becomes fiction?

Are science fiction writers just modern day prophets? Do they represents the atheists messiah, complete with their own cult following? I would like to suggest that perhaps more people know about Douglas Adams (or Harry Potter) than they knew about Jesus at that time. No social media back in those days and there were only so many carrier pigeons to spread the word.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Are science fiction writers just modern day prophets?

Yes.

Oh, you wanted more discussion?

Take Arthur C Clarke, whose stories predicted many things that are reality today. Two cases in point: Orbiting communications satellites and noise-cancelling headphones. (The latter from his short story "Silence Please" from his collection Tales from the White Hart.)

Gene Roddenberry and his team of writers: The communicator that looks like a flip-phone.

Dick Tracy's writer Chester Gould: The communicator wrist-watch.

Jules Verne: Deep-sea submarines in 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea and multi-rotor helicopters in Robur The Conquerer - Orbiting the moon in From the Earth to the Moon

H.G. Wells: Aerial combat and the London Blitz from The Time Machine

Isaac Asimov - world-wide networking in "The Final Question"; humanoid robots in multiple stories of his I, Robot collection. (OK, we aren't all the way with robots yet, but look hard at how far we have come by checking the headlines about human-looking sex robots.)

Does it therefore - over time - then lose status as science fiction and just becomes fiction?

I would say "no" on that one AS AN OPINION. The stories were written as speculative fiction; the author often is the cause of its classification.

 

[Jon]

Let us imagine a writer who speculates about the flip phone. Ten years later, flip phones are everywhere. Someone reading that story will look at it as just normal everyday life, once those phones are ubiquitous. It is only if you read it earlier, it appears as science fiction. Without knowing the date the book was authored, it has blended into fiction. That is my perspective.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

When you look at 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea you have to call that science fiction even if you realize that almost everything that Verne wrote about has come to pass. When you look at the fictional work, it may be unfair to compare it to current reality. How about something that I don't believe was originally written for the science fiction genre but was rather a social commentary: George Orwell's 1984. He got the predicted year wrong. But not by that much. (OK, I could be wrong on how the original genre was viewed.)

 

[Jon]

Good point on the social commentary, or rather the reverse of science fiction. Could social commentary be then considered science fiction if it's predictions do not come to pass? The reverse case of my point, even if you don't agree with it!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Actually, MY viewpoint is that calling something "science fiction" or "fantasy" or "detective story" or "spy thriller" or "bodice ripper" is for the folks who WON'T have intellectual discussions after reading the book. They just want to bury themselves in print and that classification just leads to stories similar to ones they liked in the past. In other words, it is a marketing strategy.

Stories with any value to them could be in any genre. "The Ship Who Sang" is a story about a woman pining for a lost love. Frankenstein (or the Modern Prometheus) is about Man's reach exceeding his grasp. The two novels Robur the Conquerer and Master of the World are about the folly of seeking ideals in a real-world setting. The Dune trilogy is about political intrigue. Ender's Game is all about coming of age and the loss of innocence.

You can go on and on, but the idea is that "science fiction" ultimately is just a setting for a story about people or cultures in a new, strange, challenging setting. You can have comedy, love, tragedy, war, politics, personal growth, brutality, gentle behavior, ... anything.

Want to talk fantasy for while? The Harry Potter series is a "coming of age" story with love, hate, joy, and horror all mixed in. Beauty and the Beast (or if you prefer, La Belle et la Bete, is a love and personal redemption story. The Lord of the Rings trilogy is about striving based on personal honor, exploring the greatness and the baseness of people.

The flaw is, in one sense, to have ever called a story "science fiction" - as if that was a throw-away categorization for a trivial story. Calling a story "science fiction" or "fantasy" or "romance" is just for those who cubby-hole their fiction.

 

[Jon]

Doc, I like your ability to characterise the various movies, applying mental models to them and their differing themes. I am weak in this area, perhaps because I immerse myself in logic and miss out on culture and fiction.

I have never really liked the fantasy genre, although I do like science fiction, which is indeed fantasy but involving technology. Come to think of it, all fiction is fantasy, but perhaps I am misusing the term in this context. Harry Potter type stuff doesn't do it for me. Same for Lord of the Rings. I just can't get into it, or get my head around wizards!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

We each have our strengths and weaknesses, Jon. Look at the parable of the Sower and the Seeds (from another thread in this forum.) You try to ride on your logical abilities because that's what you have.

I, too, am logical and often get a "whack" from my dear wife because I overthink something. Somewhere along the line, I learned the trick of allowing my child self to come out and play.

And you are absolutely right: You could call science fiction a form of technology fantasy. Just as a detective story is an "investigative fantasy." In the strictest sense, everything that is fiction is SOME type of fantasy. The "damsel in distress" stories referred to as "bodice rippers" are just female fantasies of a sort - a woman looking for a knight in shining armor to come in and sweep her away from her current plight.

 

[Jon]

If you knew me on a personal level Doc, you would realise what a child I can be!

I have to take offense at the suggestion of the patriarchy coming to the save the damsel in distress. It should indeed be the damsel coming to save the knight in shining armour, sweeping him away from his toxic masculinity.

 

[Bee]

 

[Jon]

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It should indeed be the damsel coming to save the knight in shining armour, sweeping him away from his toxic masculinity.

For instance, in the movie Shrek when Princess Fiona is accosted by "Monsieur Hood" and his "Merry Men." When she's finished defending herself, Shrek and Donkey are staring in a combination of wonder and fear.

And by the way, my dear wife DID rescue me from some of my toxic beliefs. She was Beauty to my Beast.

I have to take offense at the suggestion of the patriarchy coming to the save the damsel in distress

You can take offense, but that kind of romance sells well. It must strike a chord SOMEWHERE. And men don't buy that stuff that often. I bought ONE and only one out of curiosity. Barely finished it because it seemed so formulaic. "Cookie cutter" plots that change the names to protect the guilty. My dear wife is a true gem, but she gets involved in these sappy Hallmark Channel mysteries and love stories where you can figure out the end and more than a couple of plot twists within the first 15 minutes. Now THOSE movies use formula plots. Plug in the names, turn the crank, out comes another romance that symbolically parallels the idea of the woman with a dilemma (damsel in distress) finding a guy who helps her see her way through the problem. Then when she has a moment of indecision about career vs. love, he sighs and walks off in the distance. Then (plot twist) someone acts as Cupid and contrives a way to get them back together. Then, within 10 minutes of the end of the story, she realizes HE is the guy she has been waiting for (knight in shining armor) and plants a huge smacker on the lips! Cue the schmaltzy background music and roll the credits crawl.

This stuff wouldn't sell if there were no market to it. Take offense all you want, but it sells.

 

[Jon]

Doc, I take zero offense at your comment. I was only kidding around. It is something that everybody seems to say nowadays and so I was making a mockery of it. Obviously lost in translation due to the medium!