How many genders are there?
- Thread starter Jon
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I see many levels to this question. From raw chromosome evaluation, two. BUT... if you do a web search of this phrase: homosexual + brain scan - you would find UK research from the 1990s using positron emission tomography (P.E.T. scans that can map the living brain). They discovered that there is such a thing as a "male brain" or a "female brain" from a structural viewpoint. That is, physically detectable differences exist between the two configurations. I'm not an anatomist or neurosurgeon so don't ask me for the details.
The earliest research found the differences, but subsequent research noted that some subjects had male brains in female bodies and vice versa. Upon questioning, such people admitted that they were homosexual. In these cases, the wiring didn't match the plumbing, and the wiring won. So now you have four cases, the combination of either of two brains and either of two sets of plumbing. The researches also found some ambiguous cases where the brain was not clearly in either configuration.
This makes me believe that there must be a spectrum of brain configurations. Remembering that the brain is the most powerful of all of your sex organs (because it is the thing that responds to arousal stimuli), this would explain a lot of the variations that have come to light in the past years. If there is a spectrum of brain configurations, then one might posit a spectrum (or at least a range) of gender preferences and identities.
This also puts the typical religious response into question. Religious fundamentalists claim that homosexuality is a choice, but in New Orleans as a Bourbon Street musician, I met people of every variation. NONE repeat NONE of the gay people thought of their situation as a choice.
One of my best friends in college, a woman whom everyone thought I would marry, "came out" to me one day in tears because she was catching flak from her own sister, who didn't even know her own sister's issues because they had become estranged. All I asked her was "Can we still be friends?" and that led to more tears - following her answer of "Yes." We became really serious as a duplicate bridge partnership. We were decent on bidding but sharks on defense. When we talked about her gender issues, she told me that from about age 13, it stopped being a choice for her. Then the only issue between us was that we sometimes lusted after the same woman.
Then I got married. A few years later (maybe 5-8 years) I learned that my step-daughter P. was gay. When the USA Supreme Court dropped the gavel on the anti-gay laws regarding marriage, P. and her partner T. got married. When I talked with them, neither one thought of their preferences as a choice. They had previously tried to conform to that strict societal viewpoint about such issues but found that they could not. The unbearably rigid way in which some churches think of gays proved to be more than they could handle and they changed denominations to find an inclusive church.
The brain/genitalia combination ALSO explains the common statement made by some gays, particularly the transvestite ones, that they felt they had been born into the wrong body. If they had a mismatch between wiring and plumbing, they actually might have been.
The earliest research found the differences, but subsequent research noted that some subjects had male brains in female bodies and vice versa. Upon questioning, such people admitted that they were homosexual. In these cases, the wiring didn't match the plumbing, and the wiring won. So now you have four cases, the combination of either of two brains and either of two sets of plumbing. The researches also found some ambiguous cases where the brain was not clearly in either configuration.
This makes me believe that there must be a spectrum of brain configurations. Remembering that the brain is the most powerful of all of your sex organs (because it is the thing that responds to arousal stimuli), this would explain a lot of the variations that have come to light in the past years. If there is a spectrum of brain configurations, then one might posit a spectrum (or at least a range) of gender preferences and identities.
This also puts the typical religious response into question. Religious fundamentalists claim that homosexuality is a choice, but in New Orleans as a Bourbon Street musician, I met people of every variation. NONE repeat NONE of the gay people thought of their situation as a choice.
One of my best friends in college, a woman whom everyone thought I would marry, "came out" to me one day in tears because she was catching flak from her own sister, who didn't even know her own sister's issues because they had become estranged. All I asked her was "Can we still be friends?" and that led to more tears - following her answer of "Yes." We became really serious as a duplicate bridge partnership. We were decent on bidding but sharks on defense. When we talked about her gender issues, she told me that from about age 13, it stopped being a choice for her. Then the only issue between us was that we sometimes lusted after the same woman.
Then I got married. A few years later (maybe 5-8 years) I learned that my step-daughter P. was gay. When the USA Supreme Court dropped the gavel on the anti-gay laws regarding marriage, P. and her partner T. got married. When I talked with them, neither one thought of their preferences as a choice. They had previously tried to conform to that strict societal viewpoint about such issues but found that they could not. The unbearably rigid way in which some churches think of gays proved to be more than they could handle and they changed denominations to find an inclusive church.
The brain/genitalia combination ALSO explains the common statement made by some gays, particularly the transvestite ones, that they felt they had been born into the wrong body. If they had a mismatch between wiring and plumbing, they actually might have been.
There are three genders. Male, Female, Hermaphrodite (genetic mix of both / indeterminate).
Until science has new convincing evidence, I'm sticking with the current science rather than politics.
Sexuality definitions are a different story. Any time there is an option, there is a choice. Being compelled one way or the other does not change the fact that a choice is made.
Until science has new convincing evidence, I'm sticking with the current science rather than politics.
Sexuality definitions are a different story. Any time there is an option, there is a choice. Being compelled one way or the other does not change the fact that a choice is made.
To my mind, the definition of man and woman came before the understanding of the "other stuff". If you want to use the "other stuff" to redefine what man and woman mean, you can't. The definition has already been made. You could argue that a male has a female psychological profile but that is different to saying they are female.
Insane_AI, everyone gets this wrong. You ARE what your brain SAYS you are. You sound like you are saying that homosexuality is a choice - but if so, you are focusing on the plumbing and THAT is not what defines you. (At least, I HOPE you don't think solely with the plumbing.)
The choice to which you have incorrectly alluded is actually to be either a sexual being or a non-sexual being. I.e. abstain or practice the sexuality that your brain defines for you. If you think gender identity is a choice, then cross over voluntarily for a while. But you can't do that, can you? Of course you can't, because your BRAIN calls the shots. THAT is where your gender identity originates.
This ties in to the other question in this forum about whether you actually have free will. The people who think we are merely products of the neurochemistry of our brains would have to immediately agree that homosexuality cannot be a choice. Which leads to a whole raft full of difficult philosophical conundrums.
If the plumbing is confusing such as the case of being a hermaphrodite, that person will STILL have a mental orientation to one gender or the other. The real trick will be to determine that orientation BEFORE any genital correction surgery.
The choice to which you have incorrectly alluded is actually to be either a sexual being or a non-sexual being. I.e. abstain or practice the sexuality that your brain defines for you. If you think gender identity is a choice, then cross over voluntarily for a while. But you can't do that, can you? Of course you can't, because your BRAIN calls the shots. THAT is where your gender identity originates.
This ties in to the other question in this forum about whether you actually have free will. The people who think we are merely products of the neurochemistry of our brains would have to immediately agree that homosexuality cannot be a choice. Which leads to a whole raft full of difficult philosophical conundrums.
If the plumbing is confusing such as the case of being a hermaphrodite, that person will STILL have a mental orientation to one gender or the other. The real trick will be to determine that orientation BEFORE any genital correction surgery.
Maybe where the dispute between the Doc and Insane_AI comes in is actually a difference between a conscious choice and a subconscious choice. You can intentionally decide to swing one way or the other, but you might be having factors that pull you one way or another based on subconscious factors (or genetic predisposition). They may conflict. So when you say the BRAIN calls the shots, which part? Conscious or subconscious? Is your DNA the real brain that is governing all underlying decisions since they are the precursor that shifts the balance of probabilities for decision making in one direction rather than another?
@The_Doc_Man:
We are going to disagree on this because we can't seem to agree on terminology. I'm heterosexual but there is nothing stopping me from becoming homosexual, it is my choice to honor my natural proclivities or try something else. This is sexuality, not gender. I agree, being with a woman is easy for me as I find it preferable. This is not a judgement against people who are or choose to be different than me.
You make valid arguments but I fear that your counter-points are not actually the proper response to my point. Again, this is because we seem to disagree on terminology, not content (may be poorly worded but I'm rushing).
I don't judge those with different sexuality than myself, I judge character and observe behavior to decide who will or will not be part of my environment.
I stand by my statement "Any time there is an option, there is a choice. Being compelled one way or the other does not change the fact that a choice is made."
We are going to disagree on this because we can't seem to agree on terminology. I'm heterosexual but there is nothing stopping me from becoming homosexual, it is my choice to honor my natural proclivities or try something else. This is sexuality, not gender. I agree, being with a woman is easy for me as I find it preferable. This is not a judgement against people who are or choose to be different than me.
You make valid arguments but I fear that your counter-points are not actually the proper response to my point. Again, this is because we seem to disagree on terminology, not content (may be poorly worded but I'm rushing).
I don't judge those with different sexuality than myself, I judge character and observe behavior to decide who will or will not be part of my environment.
I stand by my statement "Any time there is an option, there is a choice. Being compelled one way or the other does not change the fact that a choice is made."
What if a guy meets a girl and she is so attractive, that in fact she is the one making the choice, not you. You are compelled because of millions of years of genetic programming to value certain features and traits. Her decision to put herself in your territory means she was the cause and you the effect. You didn't decide, you had no choice. She decided.
I think there is a tendency to conflate gender and sexuality.
Gender is determined primarily by the sexual organs a person has.
Sexuality is determined by how and who with those sexual organs are used.
Birth gender is not a choice - unless you are born intersex, then you probably have to make a choice. I also don't think sexuality is a choice. I've never been interested in kissing girls. I've always been heterosexual. It's my instinct, not my choice.
Gender is determined primarily by the sexual organs a person has.
Sexuality is determined by how and who with those sexual organs are used.
Birth gender is not a choice - unless you are born intersex, then you probably have to make a choice. I also don't think sexuality is a choice. I've never been interested in kissing girls. I've always been heterosexual. It's my instinct, not my choice.
The problem is that thinking that gender is associated with the plumbing ignores modern research regarding the brain's gender. Further, there is at least some evidence that brain structure comes in a spectrum, not a dichotomy. The brain tells you what you like. If you act on it or don't, that is a decision. But we don't know the inner workings of the brain so (at the moment) cannot evaluate whether gender identity has a subconscious origin or perhaps comes from a part of the brain we have not fully identified as to function.
All I know is that in my 70 years on this Earth, no gay person has ever told me they thought their orientation was a choice. Ever.
All I know is that in my 70 years on this Earth, no gay person has ever told me they thought their orientation was a choice. Ever.
There is no biological indicator that identifies "race" as a real thing. There is only one hard-and-fast test. (OK, not so fast...) Can two creatures appearing to be different from each other nonetheless mate AND produce viable offspring? Horses and donkeys can mate to produce mules, but mules are sterile, so the answer is "NO" for them. But so far as I know, Caucasians and Negroids can mate and their children are viable too.
There ARE tests for genetic area markers. If you could cough up a mitochondrial DNA marker for west-central Africa, we could believe you were black. Otherwise, we would need more information.
There ARE tests for genetic area markers. If you could cough up a mitochondrial DNA marker for west-central Africa, we could believe you were black. Otherwise, we would need more information.
I think I understand. You are saying I could not alter my DNA marker just by wanting it to be different. Is this not the same with gender? The brain is just one part of the body. If a man identifies with being a woman, why would he need surgery to "correct" things if he is already considering themselves to be a woman? Why would the medical profession use male rules for this person? Is this not just about semantics, trying to redefine an established meaning to cater for how people feel rather than what their predominant biology is?
I think though, that's where people who are transitioning come in, Doc. They've been born with one set of plumbing, but not the wiring to match. So, there is a disconnect between plumbing and wiring. Currently, it's easier to change the plumbing to match the wiring - but whichever way you look at it, plumbing determines gender because:
a) The sex organs you were born with match your wiring
b) The sex organs you were born with are changed to match your wiring and therefore enabling you to identify as male/female (In this example, the wiring is dictating the end outcome - but ultimately for the person transitioning to feel fully male or fully female, their plumbling is altered, making that the prime driver)
c) In the case of someone who is intersex, the redundant plumbing is removed so that they can fully identify as male or female.
Which leads me to a joke for all you chemists. You've heard of the Iron Man contests? Well, Iron Man can also be written Fe Male.
a) The sex organs you were born with match your wiring
b) The sex organs you were born with are changed to match your wiring and therefore enabling you to identify as male/female (In this example, the wiring is dictating the end outcome - but ultimately for the person transitioning to feel fully male or fully female, their plumbling is altered, making that the prime driver)
c) In the case of someone who is intersex, the redundant plumbing is removed so that they can fully identify as male or female.
Which leads me to a joke for all you chemists. You've heard of the Iron Man contests? Well, Iron Man can also be written Fe Male.
Let me switch sides to the Doc's view for a second. 
Essentially, when we talk about plumbing, are we not talking about the biological construction of the body? Men have bits constructed in a different way to women and vice versa. Adam is short of a rib. Let us assume that the brain also thinks in a male way and the woman's in a female way. It is pretty obvious here who is who. But here is where it gets fun...
a) If a man has his meat and two veg and thinks like a man, Bee says he is a man.
bee) If a man has his meat and two veg and thinks like a woman, Bee says he is still a man.
But the wiring in the brain is also a biological difference. Why does the meat and two veg physical construction have more weight that the "female brain" physical construction for this person? Does the brain not represent a more powerful marker for if someone is male or female, due to its huge influence on this persons life?
Essentially, when we talk about plumbing, are we not talking about the biological construction of the body? Men have bits constructed in a different way to women and vice versa. Adam is short of a rib. Let us assume that the brain also thinks in a male way and the woman's in a female way. It is pretty obvious here who is who. But here is where it gets fun...
a) If a man has his meat and two veg and thinks like a man, Bee says he is a man.
bee) If a man has his meat and two veg and thinks like a woman, Bee says he is still a man.
But the wiring in the brain is also a biological difference. Why does the meat and two veg physical construction have more weight that the "female brain" physical construction for this person? Does the brain not represent a more powerful marker for if someone is male or female, due to its huge influence on this persons life?