Are vegetarians cruel or just misinformed?

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#1
I understand that vegetarians shun meat for different reasons, ranging from morality to health. But if we tackle the moral reasons, are they in fact misplaced? I read an article that suggested the death count per acre of harvesting arable land is much higher than that of livestock. Countless voles, moles, mice, rats and other small mammals are slaughtered in the name of morality, with the combine harvester yielding the axe. Do insects count too, or are we not allowed to have morality attached to these little blighters?

What is your view? Are vegetarians cruel or just misinformed?
 

Bee

Founding Member
#2
I'd also like to add that hares in the UK are now a protected species, and also a priority species under the UK Post-2010 Biodiversity Framework. And all because of modern farming methods. Unlike rabbits, hares don't burrow, instead making forms (little depressions) on the ground. Countless have been eradicated by threshing and harvesting.

I think veggies will always point out that the sheer numbers of animals bred for the food chain far outweighs the collateral damage caused by food production and most that I have known have been relatively sanguine about their choices. However, vegan are another kettle of fish - or should that be another plate of cauliflower? I have yet to meet a vegan who is not practically zealous/evangelical about their beliefs. There's an old joke:

How can you know if someone is vegan?
Because they'll bloody well tell you.

And it's true. Vegans are the hard-line extremists.

(Sorry if I've offended any vegans/veggies).
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#3
You haven't offended the vegans, but you have offending the millions of poor animals who will suffer a death at the hand of their human keepers, followed by masticating them to death for your own pleasure. Please read that last bit carefully. I don't want you to get the wrong idea!

I do want to touch on the morality of the poor fish! Those little wrigglers are left to suffocate on the boats, after being hauled on-board by their net happy fisherman. What about their rights? We stun cows, not sure what we do to chickens and I presume we humanely slaughter (if there is such a way) pigs. But the poor little sprat gets a rough deal.
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#5
I am a slave to my desires. I comfort myself in the first post in this thread being possibly true. After that, I stick my head in the sand and avoid all thought on the matter.
 

Bee

Founding Member
#6
I'm interested in how your statement above ties up with your philosophical/spiritual beliefs. You've previously described yourself as being most closely aligned with Buddhism. And I know how long you spend getting midges out of your car.... Yet, you'll happily slap a steak on the BBQ. Do you feel conflicted at all?
 

Jon

Administrator
Staff member
#7
I do not feel conflicted in any way. Put aside the Buddhism alignment for now, let us instead tackle the midge vs the steak. The steak represents just a portion of the animal. It is possible that if I took that much meat off a cow, it might still live! Yet the midge, we are talking about its whole life now. A midge doesn't live long. Does not a mayfly live only one day? Perhaps a midge is a cousin and has a similarly short lifespan. So, if I spend 5 minutes trying to gently coax the thing out of my car (yes, I did!) then I am perhaps giving it a high percentage of its life, maybe 20 cow years. So factor in that a steak is a small part of a cow, the midge life is short and and cows much longer...Thus, to save a midge is like the equivalent to 200 cow steaks.

Given the above, I am not quite sure how I can polish off a plate of whitebait without a bat of an eyelid!

Regarding Buddhism, I agree with the philosophical elements to a large degree. "Life is suffering". But if I don't eat my steak I will suffer even more, because I love the stuff!
 
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The_Doc_Man

Founding Member
#8
In a modern age where dietary supplements come in bottles (of pills), a vegetarian or vegan can survive without nutritional issues. However, in the absence of such supplements, vegetables don't provide EVERYTHING you need to live. Some meat proteins (and more important, certain types of fats) are necessary for good health. If you can't afford the supplements, then you have to try for the meat (though that ain't cheap these days either). I wonder if vegans aren't somewhat elitist food snobs because THEY can afford the supplemental stuff that many hard-working people can't.

As to me, there is nothing wrong with red meat, white meat, fish, frog (legs), alligator (tail), poultry, etc. For textural reasons I scrupulously avoid escargot, salmon, and insects. (There might be a few things I unscrupulously avoid, but let's not go there.) I have dietary issues since my gall bladder and I have parted company, so really oily meats are things I have to avoid. Sadly, 90% of my favorite pizza toppings fall into the "avoid" category and pizza without meat is like a country girl without a few freckles (as the old saying goes.) So no more pizzas have to give their lives for me. That dietary problem also means that I have to avoid nutria (a.k.a. coypu) - they are greasy. Which in a way is a shame since they are quite prolific here in south Louisiana. There are only two differences between nutria and tribbles - (1) tribbles make nice pets and (2) nutria aren't born pregnant.

As to moral reasons, hate to break it to the vegetarians and vegans, but even if people didn't eat those critters, they would die in huge numbers due to starvation (due to their overgrazing) and suddenly increased predator numbers (due to the law of supply and demand applied to nature). Controlling a herd to live within the capacity of its grazing area is important. So... you thin out the herd by killing a bunch. So NOW what do you do with the carcasses? I contend that if you are going to play the morality card, then those animals died in vain UNLESS you eat them so that they can take a more active part in the great circle of life. (Echoes of Sir Elton singing in the background...)
 

Bee

Founding Member
#9
Jon - you want to have your steak and eat it.

Doc - Tribbles make terrible pets. Perhaps not for the first 30 mins, but after that....
 
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